Breaking Brews!

The Beer Balagan

So much confusion in the air regarding the recent news about beer. Is it kosher? Does it need a hechsher? Is this relevant to everyone? Do I need to stock up on beer before January 1st, 2026? We interviewed Rabbi Sholem Fishbane - Kashrus Administrator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council, and Executive Director of AKO, to find out exactly what is going on with the beer. Let's listen in to this insightful conversation.

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R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness project. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, executive director of AKO and Kashrus administrator of the Chicago Rabbinical Council. The reason we're meeting today is a little different than our usual episodes where we address a wide range of kashrus topics. Today we're addressing something more timely, and that is the, what I'll call the beer tumult.

Now we usually don't respond to tumults, right? That's not our style, but over here, we, and I say we, Let's Talk Kashrus, the greater kashrus world, has been inundated with questions about beer specifically after what I would say a number of East Coast hashgachos released a statement regarding beer that seemingly changed the status quo with regard to domestic beer, at least that's the way I understand it. So let's get into it. What exactly was the statement and what surprised people?

R’ Sholem Fishbane: These agencies that you mentioned did not release a statement to the public at all. It was an internal document that were sent to their establishments discussing a policy change.

Like you said, a tumult or a kashrus crisis is when we find there's a major problem, uh-oh, alerts and go out and let the world know do this. That's not what happened. It was a calculated, and I want to say three to four year discussion of when should we make a policy change to go from taking beers without a hashgacha to only having beers with hashgacha in our establishments or parties that are under our hashgacha. Huge difference.

And it was somewhat of a leaked document. It was not supposed, yes. And I'm quoting those hashgachos.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That makes this much more exciting by the way.

R’ Sholem Fishbane: It was a leaked document. It was not supposed to go to the public. It was supposed to go to their establishments and give them time. And what's the biggest raya? It says there starting January 1st.

If it would be a crisis or something terrible, we would be not starting January 1st. And I heard the greatest questions at the convention, like, so if I buy beer on December 31st and I go over the international date line and I come back, does it choizer v'ne'or? These are like the great questions, like does everyone have to stock up? Nothing is changing in terms of the metzius. My son told me in yeshiva they they decided the reason. There's a new law passing January 1st that's going to affect all the beers.

Also not true. Nothing's changing. It was a policy decision and it's important for us to understand what's going on. And that is that we've been debating internally and we at Kashrus Awareness, if you recall, have had two episodes on beers.

Rabbi Neihaus did a very thorough video explaining what beer is. I explained, I did an episode has to do with our, with our establishments and how we're going to be approaching it at each establishment. Just as a side note, we have so many, liquor has become a big part of the simchas, as we know. And many times a mashgiach, he he look, he walks in on a Shabbos and there's a bar there, he doesn't know what to do.

He can't look it up online. We actually just created just last week, a CRC Kosher Liquor Guideline, a pocket where the mashgiach can put in there, and it goes through, you know, beer and brandy and bourbon and rye and Canadian whiskey, gin, you know, a double sided. It tells us, you know, bekitzur what the things are. Because this is the metzius today.

So what what was happening was that liquor happens to be pretty much of an established thing. Beer specifically for, you know, hundreds, maybe thousands of years, where there it was very specific, very pure. You can only use four or five things. And that is still the case in most of the world besides the United States, most of the world besides the United States, okay? And in the United States, they started playing around like we spoke about many times, craft breweries, this brewery, that brewery.

And because of that, we, we in the industry, have becoming more and more nervous, like how much longer can we still feel that beer being made in the United States is is l'chatchila kosher? And even if that beer that you picked up is not flavored or anything like that, but what happened to the keilim and the other stuff that are going on? That's what's going on. And in particularly, there's, there's something we've been we've been finding more and more with beer, again in the United States mostly, is that they're able to use and they use sometimes lactose. Now, why do they use lactose? It has to do with the way lactose basically is a gives it a certain sweetness and smoothness that doesn't get lost when they when they do the brewing, as opposed to some of the other things. So it stays with it.

It's very good. And here's the key. The key is that because beer is not moderated by the FDA, rather by something called TTB, they don't have to declare like on food. They don't have to say there's there's no allergies, even though lactose itself might not be an allergen because there's no protein in it.

But beside, they don't have to, they don't have to write ingredients. It's a different type of... regulation. And and because lactose is becoming common, more common rather, I don't want to make this a it's not a crisis.

It's just it's becoming more common. And lactose not only is milchig, but it could actually be non-kosher because it comes from, you know, cheese. Therefore we're we're becoming more and more concerned. We in kashrus agencies tried to give over to the tzibbur what's called shailah-free.

And when a person walks into our place, they are not looking for bedieveds. Again, this is not the consumer. So, you know, I want to give an example. I remember when I first got into kashrus, we the agencies weren't really looking at what's called transportation trucking.

You know those big trucks on the side of the road they're going on down the road and all that. It was too difficult. We were we were still dealing with making sure every ingredients were kosher. We always had, you know, we we knew that even if there was something non-kosher that the truck had previously done, hauled, it was going to be kosher bedieved. like the Shach and all of that. But once we got our we were we were very solid with everything else, we we went into, okay, now no more of the of bedieved, whatever is, no more shailah-free. And we and now Baruch Hashem, all the transportation in America is is lechatchila mehadrin. And you could if you if you look through the history of kashrus, and I can write a book on this, how we as we grow, the klal Yisrael and and our and our buying power has grow, we're able to do this more and more and more.

And that's that's mamish what's going on with beer. We have had the opportunity now that Baruch Hashem to say, we we don't need to do this anymore. We don't we don't need to rely on taking beers that are problematic or at least have a shailah to it. And therefore, let's get are we ready to get to that point where only you should use a beer that are under hashgacha, meaning the the party's under hashgacha, with hashgacha.

That was the debate. Let me explain to you the problem. The problem is that if you look at the most popular beers, let's say the top 10 beers in the world, eight out of 10 of them don't have a hechsher. So how can we go ahead and put out a list and and and insist, right, that you can only have a with a hechsher if you you kimat can't get anything good? So what and so what happened was that this this has been the debate.

And on top of that, if let's say we came out and the world and a word got out that you should only get something with a hechsher. The hashgachos say that. And you say, okay, I follow the hashgachos. And then you walk into a shalom zachar, their own rav, and he has a Heineken on the table.

Heineken doesn't have a hechsher. What are we doing? Right? You understand from it there's a there's almost like a big picture chinuch aspect. Right, right. Gzeira she'efshar yachol la'amoid bo.

La'amoid bo, right. When Chazal said it, they knew there's real it's a real thing. So this was the debate. I'm talking two, three, four years, you know, really geshmak debates in the kashrus world, in the AKO executive, what we should and should not do.

And what we we discovered was that every agency has their kehilah and they they can decide for themselves. And that's what happened. At at the last AKO executive meeting, we we we the the what you mentioned, the larger East Coast hashgacha said, you know what? We feel in the East Coast and based on the the clientele that we're servicing, we think it's time to make that turn. And v'rayo, we're not doing it, it's not a crisis.

Starting whatever it is, we're going to start, we're going to make that turn, we're going to do that corner. And other agencies said, we're with you. We're not there yet. Because we cannot give a list, and if you look at the list that was given out originally, even though there were several hundred, but some of the more popular ones, if you read the the the actual the the not the fine print, but it said there things like only available in UK or Belgium.

Shkoyach, but the shalom zachar is in Lakewood. Right? And what what the chiddush is is that the agencies felt that they could include some of the the top five popular beers based on very, very first-hand knowledge.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Included in the kosher list? Yes, even though it doesn't have a hashgacha.

R’ Sholem Fishbane: So why? So and I'll tell you what they are.

Heineken, Modelo, Budweiser, Stella, Corona. Why? Because it turns out that it actually we have to thank the importers for Israel. There are many these these beers that make it to Israel. So that those that go to Eretz Yisrael have hashgachos.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: They do?

R’ Sholem Fishbane: They do have hashgachos. They're they're special runs. So the agencies that are visiting those for the special runs, now are in the factories. They're saying eidus of what's going on of what's going on in those in those major ones.

And therefore even though it doesn't have a hashgacha on it, there's enough yedios and eidus and knowledgeable in the factory to say we're comfortable adding to the list. That's a major breakthrough. That's a major breakthrough.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And is that a new revelation?

R’ Sholem Fishbane: That's a new revelation.

And that that's going to be started to be included.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So therefore, but I will say also that because of that revelation, it also somewhat weakens the whole project in the sense that, okay, so now there are some beers I could use without hashgacha. Are you not concerned that now people will just kind of say that this whole awareness is kind of lacking. So I appreciate that's a very human mentality is that when you have a Torah she'b'al peh, all of a sudden the Torah she'b'ksav falls apart.

R’ Sholem Fishbane: Exactly. Great point. Great point. So if it would just be Torah she'b'al peh that I called the company and I and I spoke to them and everything's okay, put it on the list, you're right.

But this is actually much stronger because there's there's the hashgachos are going into the factories. Uh, so therefore that's why those hashgachos felt. But at the end of the day, you're it it is a it is a valid point and therefore they're not going to be expanding. You know, they're not they're not looking to start expanding more than this.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So it's just those five classic. And will it be publicized? Because it has not been publicized as of yet, right? Right. Just to address before you go further, the January 1st date also was technically an arbitrary date, right? Just because the start of the new secular year, but it didn't have any scientific or or kashrus importance, that particular date, right?

R’ Sholem Fishbane: Right. There was nothing nothing like like my son's theory in yeshiva, right? No, nothing.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No new laws, nothing nothing's changing as of that date. It's just that you needed a date to choose to choose to give them enough time. to give people enough time to prepare and so on.

R’ Sholem Fishbane: Right.

It really is an, we'll call it an American problem. Because you're saying that what? That around the world they haven't been don't play around, that craft breweries are not throwing in oysters, they're not they're not putting bacon in. I think I mentioned last time, you know, one of the our fellow um colleagues in in Boston. So he walked into a craft brewery and they were putting in pepperoni pizza into it, and they put in ham and this.

That's that's like an American craft micro. And and the reason why, again, the reason why the hashgachos felt that it was time to turn the corner is when you go shopping, it's very hard for you to actually know is this a craft brewery, is is one of the big boys. You know, it's hard to know. So, we it was just too confusing and therefore, you know, it was time to turn the corner.

So I hope I'm giving somewhat of a background of what the debate was. And it's very similar, there's so many other examples. I gave the transportation, but there there's canned vegetables. You can go through the history of food and and kashrus.

And and and as both we've gotten stronger and as and together with the industry changing, that the agencies had said it's time for us to become shaila-free on this as well. And that's what's going on over here. And there are there are hundreds if not thousands of ingredients that we call in the industry group-one that we still accept without a hashgacha because we know that that's just a pure type of product. Now, the other agencies that aren't there yet are not because in principle they feel this, you know, they're wrong, but it's because based on, as I said, demographics, other things, they feel that their kehillah are, you know, in other words, if it would be a real shaila, there's nothing to talk about.

We're talking about thinking about the future, when is that time to turn that corner? Shaila-free is always a good way to go. Right. There's close to 900 beers that I know about offhand that have a hashgacha.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: 900 beers? Is that right? Yeah. Have a hashgacha?

R’ Sholem Fishbane: Have a hashgacha. Wow. You know, uh, you know, all the Sam Adams, there are. There's there's that's another reason, and maybe I should have said this in the beginning, another reason why these hashgachos said, let's turn the corner January 1st, is because there's an option.

If we would do that today, let's say on scotch, there's almost nothing to drink. I mean, there's not enough good scotch or Irish whiskey that have hashgacha yet to be able to turn the corner. But because beer had there are so many, you know, maybe there's up to a thousand, you know, whatever the number.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now if someone if someone wanted to explore that list of beer with hashgacha, where where could they look or where could they check?

R’ Sholem Fishbane: So the CRC, you know, who I my day job, uh, we have a a very a full list of beer? a very, but we have we divide into three.

Okay. We these agencies sent out a spreadsheet to their and you know, I'm sure it's available somewhere. Um, you know, I I don't think they're they're not releasing that. But I can tell you what we we've done.

We have a very thorough liquor list. It's probably the largest in the world of researched beer, of liquor b'klal, and we divide it into three categories. Um, certified, approved, which means we did the research, and non-recommended. Okay? So someone like yourself or, you know, a yirei shamayim or that that you I just want I just want certified.

Very easy. Uh, you know, you could you can choose on our website which ones to give the whole list, just certified list, just the non-approved list, you know, whatever you want. So the options are, that would be uh, I'm not just saying because I work for the CRC, it happens to be, you know, kudos to Rabbi Niehaus who does a tremendous amount. research.

And he himself, he stopped researching every time a new beer comes out. We're not researching the beers that don't have hashgacha. We feel we researched the classics, we're good to go, and Klal Yisrael should be has sufficient amount of beer to get us through at least one shalom zachar. Right, right.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Well, we appreciate you shedding light on this. I can't tell you how many questions I got about this in the last few weeks and people just want to be informed. And I'll end with this. I'm always impressed by the bikush, the desire of people to do the right thing.

Time and again, I'm blown away. People come over and they come with questions with tremendous sincerity. And it's not just recommendations for topics that we should speak about here on this program. It's real questions.

They want to do the right thing. So many people ask me for your number. They would love to call you day and night with questions.

R’ Sholem Fishbane: And they ask me for your number.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That's just because they want to be on the program. But all jokes aside, people do want to do the right thing. They want to reach out and this program enables them to do that. So Rabbi Fishbane, thank you again for all that you do for our project and specifically for coming in today to shed light on this very important topic.

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