Nisht beSeder
Kashrus In The Yeshiva Kitchen In this episode of Let’s Talk Kashrus, Rabbi Meilech Friedman, Rosh HaMashgichim at Tartikov, discusses a critical but often overlooked issue: kashrus in yeshiva and school kitchens. From bishul Yisroel and the separation of milchigs and fleishigs to ingredient verification and proper supervision, he shares firsthand examples of the challenges that can arise when no one is taking responsibility. He also offers a practical suggestion for how parents can help bring about change by simply asking one important question: Does the mosad have hashgachah in its kitchen?
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Meilech Friedman, Rosh HaMashgichim at Tartikov. Thank you, Rabbi Friedman, for being here.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: My pleasure.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Shalom aleichem.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Aleichem shalom.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Thank you again. I want to talk to you today about a topic that comes up all the time. I get asked about it wherever I go, and it seems like nothing has changed in this field, and that is kashrus in yeshivas. Now, to most people who are not in yeshivas, it doesn't affect them. But we have thousands and thousands of tinokos shel beis raban, boys, girls going to school every day eating lunches, and in mesivtas they're eating suppers and sometimes breakfast, and so on and so forth. There's very often a kitchen operating from morning to night, and as far as I know, unless you could tell me otherwise, most yeshivas, if not all, do not have hashgacha. Talk to me about this topic. Why is it that way? Is it acceptable in your eyes, and what improvement should be made?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Okay. It is a very, I would even say, a painful topic because, unfortunately, we have hundreds of thousands of kids being served every day, three meals a day, and there's no hashgacha whatsoever in I would say 99% of the kitchens of yeshivas, schools, and chadarim. Is it is it the reason for that probably because when it started it was, let's call it, more local, and people knew the administrator and the manager and the cook, and they relied on them, which is, let's say, acceptable. But at the rate it was going and growing at all different parts in yeshivas and schools, that meant that the administrator wasn't in touch with the kitchen, and the manager is not in charge of the kitchen, and you have a cook, sometimes a frum Yid, sometimes not. Most of the times nowadays, he's just in and out for to guide the people who work in the kitchen what to do and not actually in the kitchen all day long. And what improvement, we'll leave for the end, try to get some idea what people just which are not involved in the hanhala of moisdos are able to do in order to get something done. So now, does it need hashgacha? I would say a little bit of harsh statement, but I would say that the worst scenarios in kashrus that I've seen during my years in kashrus were in yeshiva kitchens.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Really?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Yes. And I'll give just some examples. I'm not want to go into too much stories and so on, but just to get an idea what we're talking about. One of nice yeshiva, chassidishe yeshiva in Boro Park reached out to us for hashgacha, and the reason why they understood they did need hashgacha was because, unfortunately, the cook took breaded cutlets and put it in a pan, and laid on that mozzarella cheese because he thought that it's breaded eggplant instead of breaded cutlets.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Chicken, it was chicken cutlets?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: It was chicken cutlets. He thought it's eggplant. It was baked and served, and only the first people who saw that it's actually something wrong were actually the people biting into it.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: So again, mistakes happen even with hashgachos.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: That's 100%. No one is perfect. But such a mistake comes with lack of organization, lack of awareness that milchigs and fleishigs have to be completely separated. That brings us to our next point, that most kitchens who operate are either milchig or fleishig. Most restaurants, caterers, even the big caterers have a separate kitchen for milchig and a separate kitchen for fleishig. Most yeshivas have one kitchen operating out of that milchigs, fleishigs, and parve. And that means utensils, open spice boxes that you use for milchigs and fleishigs, you pour into in the morning into a pot of scrambled eggs with cheese inside, and then at night you pour it into a pot of soup, a chicken soup. Same open spice buckets are used for both, and that's a big kashrus issue. I've been called to a certain yeshiva, a different yeshiva, for hashgacha, also because one one of the parents went into the kitchen once and saw what's going on, and he made a big tummel, and the yeshiva said, "Okay, let's bring in someone, maybe it's not so bad, we can just consult them what to do." So we came in. Small, small place, really small. And it was like a sink in the middle of the room, two sides of sinks and a divider. And it was like, probably 75 sheet pans laying around over there, and I asked the goy, there's no Yid inside, I asked the goy, "How do you know which sheet pans are milchig and which sheet pans are fleishig?" And he said, "What do you mean? What's on this side is milchig, what's on that side is fleishig." So not talking about a concrete wall, you're talking about a small divider, small room, and six people working. No way to trace anything what's over there. It's beside that in that kitchen there was no Yid in charge of actually turning on the fires, which is a big issue in most of the kitchens. People assume that it's in a yeshivah, there's Rebbis, melamdim going in and out all the time, so there's Yidden all the time, what's the issue? But the real the real metzios is there's no one in charge. No one actually comes in, looks at the fire, did I put this on, or not? You have 10 people passing by, everybody assumes that someone else turned that on, and that means that the goy knows nobody knows if he if he turned it on or another one. So if it happens to be that a rabbi is pass- passing by when he wants it, he's going to ask him, not bad, but if he has to go call someone, he's never going to do it, because why should he? Nobody
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: It's inconvenient.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Yeah, he should go now look for someone? So, over there the same thing. In this yeshivah, we they had a chef that came in once in a while, let's say once every two days, to make sure the kitchen's up and running. So now I asked him who is actually achrai on turning on the fires? He said, "There's no one, but there's always bochurim around in and out. Probably they they turn it on." So I asked the Rosh Yeshivah. He said, "What do you mean? A bochur that gets catched going into the kitchen gets thrown out! It's it's a choshive yeshivah, they can't be in the kitchen." So this is a gap, and that means that for unfortunately, for years, the goyim were turning on the fires on a daily basis.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: And no one took charge of it because no one was actually on this position to take achrayus on it. So, we told them for the Rosh Yeshivah that either you hire someone in the kitchen, or you have to make exception to the rule and get two bochurim actually in the kitchen once in a while. They don't have to be all day long, once in a while. We did a very interesting system on the knobs of the range to they shouldn't be able to turn it off, it should be on all the time.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Oh, really?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Yeah, yeah, it's a very...
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Interesting.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: I wouldn't say it's something to present for people, but more like wood with screws, something very yeshivish, but it worked.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Uh-huh. But, hey, it did work. To ensure bishul Yisroel.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: It did work. Yes, so that's why it had a lock, only one bochur had a key. He'd open it up in the morning, turn on the fires, lock it back in order they shouldn't be able to turn it off all day long. So now, this is not something's going to happen in your ordinary commissary, your ordinary restaurant, that no one has achrayus at all on what's going on in the kitchen.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: If I can mention, you mentioned bishul Yisroel, you mentioned mixing milchigs, fleishigs, side pots, and also ingredients, but I would say also just ordering the the food items, right? The the stock room the stock room in the yeshivah, that who's taking care of the ordering and making sure that every item is under a reliable hechsher?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: 100%. In most places, happens to be there are the Yiddish managers who are actually ordering, the goyim are not ordering, but no one is looking it over. When it comes in, there's no receiver who actually takes the bill of lading, looks over the boxes: "I ordered this, I got this."
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Right.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: It doesn't happen.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: And and if they run out of something, if they have to run out to a store and get something, right?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: A very big issue. Yeah. And also there's government programs giving out produce, canned food, and all these kind of stuff over here in in New York, and most of them come with a hashgachah, not a hashgachah on the actual box, but it has a letter of certification. But because it doesn't have a a a hashgachah on the actual can, someone who walks in the kitchen wouldn't see that it's something wrong. I'll give a very striking example. There was a time, it's not actual anymore, in that time there was StarKist tuna was made a special run of bishul Yisroel for the moisdos. Anyone who walks into the kitchen who sees StarKist tuna has no idea if this is the bishul Yisroel run or not.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Uh-huh.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: The only way to know it is by the letter of certification, it had a lot code, and you had to compare the lot code. So, two things: number one, nobody could see, and even if there's no one to accept the order, match the lot codes, and confirm it, very possible that you got the lot number that is not bishul Yisroel, it's a case away. This is another very strong point. And then it has far-going in in in terms of, you make an alumni Shabbos, yeah, very common all the places. Who serves the Shabbos in a lot of places? The yeshivas. So the the chef, the cook in the kitchen in the yeshivah cooks it, sends it out to the hotel, house, whatever they rented for the for the Shabbos, and along with that, pots, pans, utensils. Who takes achrayus on that? Nobody knows what's happening over there. Sometimes they forgot it over there, I've had in the past, it stayed a week over there, a goyishe place, and it came back to the kitchen. Who takes achrayus for this week?
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: And then there's the next step, all related to that, is the summer camps. So now, I know there's an initiative from AKO and the CRC to review summer camps, but I would say 80% are still not assigned to that, and nothing nothing is happening.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: And it sounds from you like really that initiative should be for yeshivos, just as much.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Absolutely. Absolutely. Just as much or even more, because that's 10 months a year, and this is two months a year.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: So I believe there are several mosdos, I think in Lakewood, that that do have some kind of supervision. Obviously, I'm sure you've heard this from mosdos when you bring it up to them. They say, listen, we're we're we're not making ends as at, you know, we're not making ends meet. We need to fundraise. Now we should take on another achrayus, financial responsibility of of a of a mashgiach or so on and so forth. And obviously the response to that is timtum halev, you know, who who is taking achrayus on the timtum halev? You'll spare some money on the tutors that you have to hire for the kids who are eating food that is questionable, right, if I may say.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Right. It's something...
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: If you if you were to institute, I'm curious, if you were to institute a a system of supervision for a yeshiva, do do they need mashgiach temidi? Do they need a a yotzei venichnas? What what is the right approach?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: So, I would say a lot depends on the volume, how much meals they serve a day, how much portions they have to produce. It's up for debate, let's say, because since it is in a place there's a lot of Yidden around and everything, but I think the bare minimum is to have at least two or three people within the staff who are in the kitchen, not like some rosh yeshiva who's in his office most of the day and just goes in. I usually say it has to be more nichnas than yotzei. If it's more yotzei than nichnas, it doesn't work. People just don't... yotzei venichnas is a real thing.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: And if the cook is a frum Yid, is that enough, or is he so busy with the food that he's not going to be able to supervise the kashrus?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: So there are more cooks that are capable, some are who are less. Again, we had a big girls school in Boro Park who called us up, and he said, listen, some parents asked that we need a hashgacha, we think we don't we don't need, come down, send a mashgiach for a day, he should write a report, let's see. By the end of the day, we had probably 30 or 35 issues in one day in the kitchen, yes, and you're talking about a place with two frum women working there full time.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Could you could you give us some of the example some of the examples of those 30, 35 issues?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Sure. From cereal not pas Yisroel, bishul Yisroel, again, not everyone is makpid, but in a place that is established that it needs to be makpid, it's supposed to be.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: I would also think that a that a mosad of chinuch habonim vehabanos should be on the highest standard, right?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: 100%, 100%, yeah. Filters not working or missing, water filters. I've had in the past, I came in, I asked the administrator, do you have a filter on the water? Of course, we invested a lot of money, we installed the filter on the main. All the water in this place is filtered. I come down to the filter, this part of being a mashgiach is being like a half-time plumber, and the filter was bypassed, meaning to say every filter when they install it, in order to be able to to make maintenance on the filter, they put in a valve that shuts off the filter, and the water gets diverted through another pipe into the system. That means that for that time, the filter doesn't work, the water doesn't pass by the filter. This was by default on a bypass mode, none of the water was filtered. Now it could happen, it can happen all the time. Every mashgiach who goes into a place knows that every here and there he has to make a stop at the filter to make sure it's up and running. When there's no one achrayus on that, it never happens, never. And what happens ends up happening is that the filter gets clogged, the water pressure gets low, the goy sees that it doesn't work, he goes there, bypasses the filter, and sholom al Yisroel. So, I would say hundreds of keilim not marked if it's milchig or fleishig, keilim who are marked milchig and fleishig mixed up all the time, having a goy taking out meat with a dairy spoon, having a goy turn on the flame, of course, ovens not bypassed. Now, again, we can debate that if it's needed or not. Standard in most kashrus organizations are that ovens, convection ovens, need to be bypassed, that when you open the door, it shouldn't shut off. None of them were done over there. And having ingredients in the stockroom which were totally not approved, meaning to say not at the lower standard. So we gave them a list, we showed it to them. We said, it's your decision, we are not here... they paid the mashgiach for the day, it's your decision. And happens to be that place is chashuve people, and they said, you're right. They hired us, and it's already probably 15 years that we give hashgacha over there.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Oh wow.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Yes. Again, there's no sign on the wall, there's no papers, and we don't get any kavod out of it, but it's kashrus, and it's real kashrus, and we know, and the administrator knows that he does what's right, and he serves kosher food for Yiddishe kinderlach.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: But I'm thinking maybe it would be a good idea for there to be a paper on the wall so that maybe other people will see it and say, "You know what? If this mosad has it, yeah."
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: This was their decision. I don't know why, but this was their decision. We have a different kitchen in Flatbush that has a paper on the wall, and he is someone who supplies for different mosdos, and we have a real certificate, and he sends it out.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: So, you should know, when I brought up this topic, I was schmoozing with with different people, and they said, "You know, we feel uncomfortable going to our son's mosad or our girl's mosad to ask this question. It's almost like we're questioning them. No one wants to be seen as the parent who's questioning a mosad. You know, then you become the difficult parent. You know, leave us alone. We have enough to worry about in the chinuch realm. Now you want us, you know, you're you're breathing down our back in kashrus." And I think that's perhaps why some parents think twice before they're going to open their mouths to their child's mosad. But it sounds from what you're saying that it's it's it's really lo zo haderech. It really can't continue this way.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: 100%.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: I don't know what the path forward is. Maybe it's conversations like this one that will result in significant change, you know, in mosdos of all types. But any final thoughts on this topic?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: So, I I would say that the simplest and most calm way to institute a change is, just as when you send in an application, it has 100 different questions on your application, just as important as whom your grandparents' mechtonim were, it is important you should ask one simple question: Do you have a hashgacha in the kitchen? Not in a way of offending. Just matter of fact: Do you have a hashgacha or not? And if the answer is not, you can put down the phone. If they'll get 100 parents per registration season asking this simple question without any conversations after that, they will get a hashgacha. That's my opinion, and I believe that people are not bad, people not the administrators, as we we spoke about it, they have so much to do, so much on their head, it doesn't pass by that the kitchen needs a hashgacha. If they'll hear it from 100 parents per registration season, I believe that will be a big, big change.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: I do want to mention that, especially in the last 10, 15 years, newer mosdos, I think when when I went to yeshiva, I don't know, when you went to yeshiva, it was standard fare for a yeshiva to have a full operating kitchen with a a cook, milchigs, fleishigs, so on and so forth. A lot of newer mosdos now, I think it's just easier, instead of hiring a chef, they get food from outside for for all meals: breakfast, lunch, and supper. I know where I live in Lakewood, it's definitely more common to have that than to have a a chef in the in the school. Is is that as serious? Is that less serious, especially because presumably the vendors that they're getting the food from have reliable hashgachos?
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: So, it's a question now of delivery and chosamos and things of that sort. So, it depends what means vendor in terms of what they are getting. Some people just get, let's say, from big vendors, commercial companies, they get potato knishes and blintzes, they just warm it up. That's one aspect. In this area, I would say 99% are good, and they have reliable hashgachos, and everything's okay. But, in other sense, they don't want to be busy buying this from that vendor and the other stuff, and they just call up a different mosad who has a bigger kitchen and tell them, "I need 200 portions for breakfast, 200 for lunch," and that mosad sends it. Now, in a certain sense, that's even worse, because just now the other mosad has more pressure, more portions to provide, and that makes a lot of pressure. But on the other hand, it's less offensive when you know that your mosad buys from a different mosad, call up the administrator and tell him, "I know when you would run the kitchen, you would have a hashgacha. Call up that administrator, ask him to get a hashgacha." It's always easier to pressure someone else than yourself. And this will probably work. I know a certain kitchen that got a hashgacha only because they wanted to expand business. They hired a few mosdos to take from their stuff, and the first question was, "Who's your hashgacha?" And they didn't have. Now, if that the other mosad had a hashgacha when they had their own kitchen, not so sure. But it's always easier to point fingers on someone else, unfortunately, but it works. And when people know that their mosad takes from a different kitchen, call up the administrator, tell him, "Ask that mosad to get a kitchen to get a hashgacha in the kitchen." And I think that it should make a big difference and a big impact on real kashrus.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Rabbi Friedman, thank you very much for joining us for this very important conversation, and our our hope is that be'ezras Hashem, conversations like these will lead to improvement, especially as kashrus keeps going from from one level to another, be'ezras Hashem, in the realm of yeshivos and schools we'll see the same.
Rabbi Meilech Friedman: My pleasure. Mamash a kavod to be here, and you should keep up your good work, mezakeh, to be mezakeh es harabbim.
R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Amen, thank you so much. Kol tuv.
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