The Mashgiach Who Didn't Miss A Beat

Being a good mashgiach, sometimes involves a bit more than just knowing Yoreh Deah. This week when many minds are on the churban already, Rabbi Sholem Fishbane - Kashrus Administrator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council, and Executive Director of AKO, gives us an example involving not having wine and live music at the same meal.

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R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with Torah Anytime. Today I am joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, kashrus administrator of the CRC in Chicago and the executive director of AKO. How are you Rabbi Fishbane?

R’ Sholem Fishbane: Baruch Hashem, thank you for having me.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: As always a pleasure to have you and a great topic today to discuss. And that is music and wine and specifically you shared with me that you were at an industry event for a certain field and you were surprised to see and observe that here were frum Yidden, erliche Yidden, bnei Torah who work in this particular industry and they're at an event for company, company affiliates and things like that and colleagues and friends and so on and so forth and they're serving wine, they have a bar, and they also had live music. And you bring it to the attention of one of the organizers and they had no idea that there was anything halachically questionable or even maybe outrightly forbidden about what they did. So explain what the concern was and explain what you do when you when you encounter such a thing.

R’ Sholem Fishbane: Right, yes, it's true. I was a guest at this, it wasn't a CRC event, I was a guest over there. But it's, the first time this came about, we were doing a, it was actually a Pesach hotel. It was our first time working with them. And the way Pesach works is there's something called a welcome barbecue. So you come the first night, it's not Pesach yet, and there's a beautiful barbecue with, it's the hello, it's the wow factor.

And there's things you can't believe what's going on and food and there's violins and harps and sushi. It was kosher l'Pesach. So obviously the sushi had to be made from quinoa, but it's a wow. And I walked in, then I was giving the hechsher, and there they were, they were playing and there was a major bar and I went over to the caterer, I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's wine here? There's a halacha in in Hilchos, actually Hilchos Tishah B'Av Siman Taf Kuf Samech, that you're not allowed to have live music and wine.

It's one of the Zecher l'Mikdash. He looks at me like, what are you talking about? He says I've been doing I've been doing food, kosher food forever and I have my Rav HaMachshir and he doesn't talk about it. It's a common mistake because it's not a Yoreh Deah halacha where most rabbonim, mashgichim are very familiar with. It's an Orech Chaim halacha but it's a halacha.

So he didn't believe me. So he called his Rav HaMachshir that he uses during the year on the phone and says this rabbi, this new rabbi, and the Rav HaMachshir to his credit says, he's right, there is such a halacha. He says what am I gonna do here? I said, I have an idea. I got a daughter, you got a son, let's get them married, we'll have a seudas mitzvah which the Rema says you're allowed to do, then we're happy to go.

It never happened. Instead we found someone else to make a siyum because the next morning was Taanis Bechorim and there were a lot of people running around ready to make a siyum. So that's a very important point that this halacha of not having live music and wine unless it's a seudas mitzvah is just a halacha that people don't know about. So in the story that you said, the the owner of this particular event was very excited to be able to maximize and he's an erlich Yid. He got up, he says raboisai, there's a halacha that we just learned.

And we're gonna and he and I actually had just finished in Daf Yomi whatever it was and I made a siyum for everyone and a good kaddish and it was a it was a great learning opportunity. So I'm glad you're bringing it up which kashrus awareness, we bring awareness to Klal Yisrael about this. And this is for sure.

So going forward, all these big events that have in it wine, you know, bars and whatnot, and you have live music, it's actually it's very meforash, Taf Kuf Samach in Hilchos Tishah B'Av that it's not allowed. Now, there are variations. When after that happened, I called around a little bit more to different poskim to understand what different agencies, what do you do? What do you do in restaurants? So like we at the CRC in Chicago, if you have live music, there's no wine being served, we take it off the menu and vice versa. That's what we do in our restaurants.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I mean it's probably not so common that you have a restaurant with live music. It's probably if they have music, it's background recorded music which…

R’ Sholem Fishbane: So that's a great point. Is that considered, is recorded music considered music? Is that considered live? I actually recently was talking to Rav Heinemann and he believes that that's called kli shir. It's kli shir, so it's no different.

The Mechaber says that talks about kli zemer, kli shir in this halacha. So it'd be no different. Recorded is a kli, right? That was Rav Heinemann's shita. Rav Elyashiv doesn't, says otherwise that recorded is not.

So I think most places go, most poskim, most agencies follow that recorded music in the background, it's Hilchos Sefirah, it's all the same halachos, you don't have to worry about it. But I was recently at a restaurant down in Florida and a nice bar and there was there was a someone walking around with a violin to every table. That's that seems to be. So I asked Rav Heinemann about that.

So he thought that there's maybe there's a difference between what, because it says in the in the Rama about the, the Mechaber says beis mishteh. So maybe if you're eating supper somewhere, which is really a restaurant, is not considered a beis mishteh. I said would would these big, you mentioned these events, the conventions or these events where we go and the bar. So he described a beis mishteh as a place where the drinking is not agav.

It's whether it's a pub or a bar, but these type of places, it's a central part of the experience. Which I'm sure you've been by them.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I have not but…

R’ Sholem Fishbane: Okay. It's very central to to these big barbecues, the bar, the particular place that I was at, not only was it a big central part of it, like every drink had a logo made in the foam.

Oh, from the company. Yeah, it was a big deal. That's called a beis mishteh 100% according to him. He, Rav Heinemann said a very interesting chiddush though.

This is his own chiddush, he said this is my own chiddush. Which I don't know others that say this, that basically if someone is singing along with the music, the music becomes what he called tafel. Tafel. Interesting.

So it happens to be many cases you will have a singer, not the case where I was where there was the violin, but so that was…

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Just saying it's, he's suggesting that it's even better when you have a singer?

R’ Sholem Fishbane: Yes, it's actually better. That's interesting because singing is not assur with yayin, it's the music that's assur with yayin. Right. Even though if you look if you look in Shulchan Aruch, it does talk about shir b'peh also.

But l'maaseh where we're halacha l'maaseh, I believe his STAR-K policy is is if there's a singer then it becomes tafel. But the bottom line is, it's a very clear halacha in Shulchan Aruch. You cannot have kli zemer with yayin unless it's a seudas mitzvah. So the practical takeaway for these events that we've been talking about is to make sure to have a siyum, someone get up and make a siyum, make a kiddush Hashem with a kaddish, with a siyum.

And it is, it's all frum Yidden and everybody wants to do the right thing.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It could be and maybe even explain why. Especially now. Explain why. Yeah, that Zecher l'Mikdash is is a serious matter. It's a halacha meforashes. So it's it's beautiful to be able to not only be be spreading awareness of here on Kashrus Awareness, but literally teaching a a halacha meforashes in Shulchan Aruch. Rabbi Fishbane, thank you for joining us as always.