Welcome To The Jungle

On this episode of Let’s Talk Kashrus, Rabbi Yitzchok Hisiger is joined by Rabbi Dovi Goldstein, Managing Director of Kosher SA, for a fascinating look into the world of kosher safaris in South Africa. From luxury five-star lodges with sealed kosher kitchens and mashgichim flown in on demand, to self-drive family safari adventures with coolers and portable braais, Rabbi Goldstein explains how travelers can experience the African wilderness without compromising on kashrus. The conversation explores the unique challenges and opportunities involved in certifying safari environments deep in the jungle, far from civilization. Along the way, listeners get an inside look at one of South Africa’s most remarkable and unexpected kosher industries.

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R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Dovi Goldstein, MD at Kosher SA, that South Africa. Thank you, Rabbi Goldstein for being here.

R’ Dovi Goldstein: Thank you so much, it's a great pleasure.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now there is another, there is another famous Rabbi Goldstein from South Africa, that's the Chief Rabbi, which you're not yet.

R’ Dovi Goldstein: I'm not the Chief Rabbi.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You're the other Rabbi Goldstein from South Africa.

R’ Dovi Goldstein: That's right and it's a privilege because I shared an office or the back of an office with him, but we're not actually related, but he is a dear mentor and friend.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But it's good to literally have you here from Johannesburg, South Africa here on the East Coast to be able to do this interview and conversation. So you head the organization in South Africa, the Kashrus organization called Kosher SA, Kosher South Africa. That's right. You're the MD which is the Managing Director.

And today we'd like to talk to you about the topic of Kashrus and Safaris. First of all, for those of our listeners who don't know what a safari is, tell us what a safari is and then you'll discuss how to certify a safari.

R’ Dovi Goldstein: Fantastic. So a safari's a broad term.

Generally it means that you're going into a wild place, and it's a really wild place, so it's not a manufactured wild place, it's not a zoo. It's wild and things happen in the way that Hakadosh Baruch Hu created in the beginning of time. Nothing's changed in many of these places. And the idea is to go there and to just be part of nature and to view nature, obviously in the safety of your own vehicle or of a safari vehicle, because these animals will kill you.

So there's the big five, lions and leopards, buffaloes, elephants, etc. And the point is that you're going into a very natural environment that is undeveloped, some places there's never been development, so it hasn't even been rehabilitated. And it's just a very magical place and some of these places are enormous, like the Kruger National Park which is right by our doorstep, four hours away from Johannesburg by car, and people go there because it's just a phenomenal experience and for many people it's a bucket list experience in their lives, people spend time there.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So people go on vacation to safaris and they spend several days at a time in a safari environment, they'll stay in a hotel or something of that sort.

R’ Dovi Goldstein: Absolutely.

So people would go there for a week at a time or for three days at a time, four days at a time, some are ten days at a time. There's some, we've met an American couple, Jewish American couple that comes here for three months. They're retired, they spend three months on safari every single year.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Really?

R’ Dovi Goldstein: Which is just phenomenal, but it is something which is remarkable that a week on safari often feels like you've been away for a month or for two months because you're just in such a different framework and your mind's changed that you come out of there and you just feel rejuvenated.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow, that must be why people do that. You're right. But what Kashrus complications are there when people go to a safari? First of all, what are you certifying there?

R’ Dovi Goldstein: So there's a couple different ways to do it. So let's call it right at the top, there's some very expensive safaris which are pretty much geared to the American market or to the European market and these are very exclusive safaris.

I went to go and check one out a number of years ago and I always do my research beforehand, why do you want us and I went onto their website and it said their room was like, I don't know, five thousand dollars a night or something like that. But then it said take a suite, fine, not so unusual. Then it said take a corner for like five suites, and then it was like no, take the whole place for like whatever it was, a hundred thousand dollars a night and I said to the guys, I said who's taking that? They said no, when stars come, they always take the whole facility. So that's the highest end.

So we've got about eight safari lodges is what they called that have a Kosher certified kitchen. So that kitchen's locked all year round. Wow. And only when it's booked for a Kosher consumer, you fly in a Mashgiach, we open the locks, we break the seals, all the food is flown in and it's very gourmet.

So that's the highest level of safari. But let's talk there's a whole gamut, when we go on safari we obviously, living there we don't go on such a safari like that. We'll go what's called a self-drive safari. So you're staying in a vehicle, you're staying in a resort, you're bringing your own food.

We do this as a family once or twice a year, which is a great Bracha and it's just incredible to be part of that kind of thing. There's no one driving you, we're driving ourselves in our own vehicles and it's just a very magical experience, very close to nature and just very close to something very real.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So if you're not on the high end and you're on what I would call the low end and you go yourself in your vehicle, do you need and could you get Kosher food?

R’ Dovi Goldstein: So what's remarkable about South Africa is that besides for meat, and let's say Pas Yisroel, and wine, the penetration of Kosher products throughout South Africa is incredible. Incredibly accessible.

So you can literally go with a cooler box of meat, and you know, like Kiddish wine or whatever you want, and everything else you can buy in the villages or the towns around these safari areas. So you don't actually need to prepare so extensively. There's plenty of things to buy.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Which we'll discuss in a separate conversation about South Africa in general and the kashrus there.

But this is more about the safaris. Now the bulk of the safari supervision that you're talking about are these high-end type of arrangements where someone might be paying $5,000 a night for a room?

R’ Dovi Goldstein: So the high-end ones where you are having a mashgiach there, those are high-end. There is also like a middle tier where it is not you know $2,000 or $3,000 or $4,000 a night. And they could have a kitchen that is kosher certified, obviously we'd have to send a mashgiach.

But there's many ways to do it. And as I said, it's pretty incredible that you can go there fully immersed, you know, we're talking about many miles away from any civilization and have a gourmet experience. Experience. Yeah.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Have you ever served as a mashgiach in that environment or have you only kind of overseen the operations?

R’ Dovi Goldstein: I've overseen it but I have been a few times with training of the staff. So it's not an official trip, right? So I've been there for a night or two nights and we train the staff. Unfortunately, I don't do it enough. When I took on the role, I said this is going to be what I'm going to be doing, you know what I mean? Sounds very attractive.

Very attractive. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time. I've got a great RC, Rabbi Alon Joseph. He travels to these places probably every month.

He's training, he's meeting with guests, he's meeting with new lodges. We're trying to expand this. We believe it's one of the greatest products that South Africa has to export. Right.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That no one else really could offer, right? You're saying eight lodgings that you have in the vicinity of the safaris in South Africa. And these are all about four hours from Johannesburg?

R’ Dovi Goldstein: Let's say between four and six hours. But at these very high-end places, people are flying in private jets and they're going, they've often got a private landing strip. So people don't even come to Johannesburg sometimes, they fly directly in and it's just a remarkable experience.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: By the way, after this episode, get ready for an uptick in reservations.

R’ Dovi Goldstein: That's what we're hoping, right?

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Before we close the conversation, what would you say because it's a very, very unique arrangement, very, very different than certifying a more conventional environment, what would you say is the biggest kashrus challenge in producing that type of service?

R’ Dovi Goldstein: So a place that has a dedicated kitchen is generally pretty easy because it's a kitchen, it's all set up, it's totally kosher, it's locked up, milk, meat, separate milk, meat, everything. And these places because they're so high-end and five-star do things properly. So nothing, there's no shortcuts.

So actually to certify a safari at the highest end is not difficult. But I think it is important to note, is that because money's not an issue? Money's not an issue. Exactly. So they'll have the best quality cutlery and stoves and they're not afraid to do that because their guests are paying so much.

But I think what is important to highlight is that let's call it middle-end and even let's call it lower-end, there are so many other ways to do it. And obviously it can get challenging if you don't have a mashgiach there. We wouldn't certify such a place. But there's plenty of ways to also go on safari without it having to be high-end.

As I say, many families, most South African families travel to safari and they, they bring their own food. And they bring their own food or they buy food in the vicinity. They bring their own braai—we call it a braai, you call it a barbecue. They bring their own barbecue, they bring their own pots and pans, and it's not very difficult to have a safari and what I would like to say is people shouldn't be afraid when they see the high-end prices to think you know that's the only way to do it.

There's plenty of other ways to do it and with research and obviously with AI today, there's many ways to do it and it's something which I would believe almost anyone could achieve if they put their mind to it and they'll find a price point which works for them. Or I imagine they could reach out to you and your office, right, for information and guidance. Absolutely. And if they go onto our website which is koshersa.co.za or za, koshersa.co.za.

Dot za. We call it a zebra, right, a zebra, you call it a zebra. And if they go onto our website they can find it and obviously they can contact us. We have many people especially during the vacation time that join our WhatsApp lines and join our communication channels and they can ask us for advice and we'd be so happy to help them find a way to do it.

R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay Rabbi Goldstein, this is a fascinating topic. Thank you so much for being here and we look forward to speaking to you.