Mind The Gap, Please
Is Your Sukkah Up To Code? You may be comfortable eating at a restaurant under a reliable hashgachah, but what about eating in its sukkah? In this special Sukkos episode, Rabbi Yosef Fund of the KCL in Lakewood joins R' Yitzchok Hisiger to explore the kashrus of public sukkos. From s'chach and sukkah walls to lavud straps, sukkah construction, and the effects of wind and weather, Rabbi Fund walks us through the practical shailos that can arise in the sukkos we encounter throughout Yom Tov.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Yosef Fund, one of the rabbanim of the KCL in Lakewood. Rabbi Fund, welcome to the Let's Talk Kashrus studio.
R’ Yosef Fund: Thank you.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So, with the Yom Tov of Sukkos coming, I mean, we don't know when people will watch this episode, but this is being put out special for Sukkos, a topic that has rarely been addressed in a forum of this sort is the topic of sukkos in establishments, public sukkos. You go to stores, you go to maybe amusement venues, wherever you go, and you're going to be eating in someone else's sukkah that was built by someone else, you don't know the details of the sukkah. So the question is, can you rely on the kashrus of the sukkah without knowing these details? And I guess to encapsulate the the crux of the question: if I'm going to a store, let's keep it simple, I go to a store, store is under a reliable hashgachah and it has a sukkah, can I assume that the kashrus organization that is supervising the establishment also supervised the construction of the sukkah and the maintenance of the sukkah? Walk us through this topic. R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, it's a great question.
I'm not familiar with what's happening in other va'adei kashrus. In KCL of Lakewood, as long as I've been involved, which is a number of years, the policy is that whoever, whichever establishment puts up a sukkah for the patrons, pizza stores mostly, there have been even halls that do it, other fast food places, maybe some restaurants, they should inform the Va'ad HaKashrus, and then sometime shortly before Yom Tov, one of the rabbanim from the va'ad visits the sukkah and assesses the kashrus of the sukkah. Sometimes we have a vendor who puts up a sukkah on Sukkos unexpectedly. Sometimes there are some who have maybe zoning issues or building issues, and they could only put up on Chol HaMo'ed, but usually it's done before, and one of the rabbanim visits and examines the sukkah.
I want to share an interesting thing. You know, we grew up, many of us, there was a sefer, a squat green sefer from Rav Elya Weisfish, two squat green sefarim, most sefarim weren't green, still aren't green, one on Sukkah and one on Daled Minim. And in Tav-Shin-Ayin-Zayin, Rav Elya Weisfish put out a new edition of the one on Sukkah, which I have right over here. It turned into two volumes with pictures on the cover and glossy pictures inside.
And I met him shortly afterwards in Ayin-Ches or so, maybe Ayin-Tes, walking right near Zichron Moshe with his son, and I told him that the sefer came to America. And he told me that his first sefer was on Daled Minim, and after the sefer on Daled Minim was published, Rav Elyashiv encouraged him to write a sefer on Sukkah. And he asked Rav Elyashiv, he said, "I understand that people need a sefer on Daled Minim, but why do people need a sefer on Sukkah? They tend to do it right." And he said, "Yeah, when people make a sukkah in their own home, then they tend to do it right. When they make a sukkah when they tend to travel, then it's often more makeshift, and that's when people need to know the halachos." So I would add, in my experience, that restaurant sukkos, for whatever reason the dynamic is, some of them are great, some of them need shipur, need fixing when I come, some need more than fixing, some need refu'ah sheleimah, but they're all put up by well-meaning people, but sometimes they have problems and sometimes it's great from the get-go.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So you're talking about the importance of a sefer on sukkah. What are specific issues that you've encountered? You come to a store, store owner presumably maybe hired someone or he put it up himself. What are the issues that you find, you know, could be problematic?
R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, one thing I find, I don't know why this is, but often there is a gap between the wall and the schach. This doesn't tend to happen in people's houses.
I've been in many sukkos. In restaurant sukkos, pizza store sukkos that are quite large, sometimes the size of the sukkah and the amount of schach they have is also off, and sometimes I show up before Yom Tov, and I say, "Have someone go and buy some more schach." We also have, I should add, we have some some nursing homes that are under the hashgachah of the KCL, and then the sukkah is inspected. Some of these nursing homes have very large sukkos, so they need a nice amount of schach, and for whatever reason, this is something I often find. The halachah is that between the wall and the schach, there can't be more than three fists' space, and often it is, and then I insist they get more schach or to adjust the schach to bring it out closer to the wall.
Sometimes, again these are large sukkos, and sometimes there's a middle space. When you have a space in the middle, sometimes that space will just mean you can't sit under that space, a gap, sometimes it will be a space that will ruin the continuity of the sukkah. Regardless, I have them fix that space because someone may sit under there, and that's something I have them fix. That's one very common thing in store sukkos, restaurant sukkos.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now when you show up to a store sukkah after it's already built, you don't know who necessarily put the schach on, right? You don't know if it was any yehudim who work in the store, and the owner maybe didn't realize and he asked them to take care of the whole sukkah without realizing that someone who's a bar mitzvah would have to put on the schach. How do you navigate that type of an issue?
R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, so that's a great question. Me'ikar hadin, sukkas ganva”ch (Goyim, Nashim, Beheima, Kutim) is kasher, so therefore even if the person who put it up was not a yehudi, it would be kasher. The proper thing is to be mechadesh bo davar to actually put, add some, one corner tefach al tefach, or lift up a part of the schach and put it back on.
Some do it just leshem tzel, some are makpid to do leshem mitzvah. Regardless, I haven't found it yet that I showed up by a restaurant or hall and they told me that it wasn't a yehudi who put it on. I'm not saying it can't happen. It wouldn't be the biggest problem because it would be me'ikar hadin kasher, and then I would be mechadesh bo davar, but lechatchilah, it would still be kasher livrachah without it, but it hasn't happened yet, maybe it will happen.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: How about an issue, and this is something that people ask a lot about, the dina demalchusa component of you can't build a sukkah, the old joke about the guy who builds a sukkah on the sidewalk outside his store, and he gets a notice from the local municipality, "You have seven days to take it down," and you know this joke is said over every Yom Tov, and so on and so forth. Talk about that, the convergence of municipal laws and regulations and the building of a sukkah on public property.
R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, so that's an important question, but a lot of it will also have to do with whether the local tzibbur, the local public minds or doesn't mind, meaning every vendor needs to be responsible for the legality of it. But if it's in a place where the local populace doesn't really mind, then from a kashrus perspective, I wouldn't be concerned with eating in that sukkah.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What other concerns have come up as far as…
R’ Yosef Fund: One of the most common issues are with the integrity of the walls. We know that one controversial topic is the…
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: is the canvas sukkos?
R’ Yosef Fund: Canvas sukkah flapping walls. Right. Okay, now, Shulchan Aruch discourages the use of walls that are from yeri'os, that are from curtains that could flap.
Shulchan Aruch mentions a a fix for this problem, which is to have poles spread out around the sukkah. I'll try to explain in a minute what that means. Now, there's more than one legitimate interpretation of what is a problem with these walls that flap. There are some who understand that a wall that moves is not a kosher sukkah, even if it just moves a little bit.
This is maybe a position that the Mishnah Berurah seems to go with, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was choshesh for. The Chazon Ish was okay as long as it doesn't move three tefachim, three fists. Some are concerned if in the middle there's a belly when the wind blows, that that's not a teishvu ke'ein taduru. Rav Moshe is concerned for that, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Chaim Kanievsky was not concerned for that.
Almost all are concerned with the problem that sometimes it tends to get detached on the bottom, on the top, it tends to come loose. Rav Chaim Kanievsky signs off on the eitzah for that of these plastic zip ties, those usually don't go anywhere, that is a solution. Now this is something that I see both before Sukkos and on Sukkos, that yes, if you just tie down your canvas, so then it will often come a point that it will get detached by the wind, it will shift from the wind and no longer be a legitimate wall, and there's also a problem that Rav Moshe mentions that sometimes people, children will knock it into it and cause it to become detached. Now, the solution the Shulchan Aruch says is to put poles.
I want to explain what that is. You could make a sukkah, which we had one vendor who had a nice wrought iron fence around his property, so he had poles, vertical poles every couple, I don't know, every six, eight inches, whatever it is. What I told him to do is put cross the other way, horizontal. Okay, if you have poles that are both vertical and horizontal, then you definitely, clearly have lavud, and that will be a kasher mechitzah, walls of a sukkah.
If you don't have in both directions, you only have in one direction, it's more controversial. Is it kasher or not? Many hold that even if it's not kasher, it's kasher min haTorah. So, there is a mahalach that many poskim go with, which is that if you have a canvas sukkah, what there are concerns it will get detached, or according to some it's too floppy, according to others maybe it's not too floppy, the way you make it okay is by having lavud, and you'll often see these lavud straps, and either it will be kasher with that alone, or at least it will be kasher min haTorah, and therefore we'll be relying on the two things together. So, if someone wants to make their entire sukkah without canvas walls or tent walls, I will definitely insist that if they're using lavud, it should go both directions.
So we definitely have one pizza store that has a wrought iron fence. He does have, you know, other walls added to it. Maybe he has for privacy curtains, but the sukkah is kasher with that alone. But I have him introduce in the other direction so there should be Horizontal. crisscross horizontal, the verticals and horizontals, that's something that's that we would allow, and that's perfectly kasher.
What if they have walls and you do your best, these curtain walls, whether they are canvas or sometimes plastic material? So yes, I will insist that they tie them well top and bottom. On top of that, that they should use these lavud straps. Now, often people don't understand what these lavud straps are all about.
So, I come, and the sukkah is assembled, and it has these lavud straps, and they're all over the place. And I don't blame them, no one ever told them what these lavud straps are for. Often they think it's just some kind of backup to provide some additional support. And they have these lavud straps and they're crooked and this and that.
They have to be lined up. If they're horizontal, they have to be lined up nicely, that they're within three fists from each other. What I insist on doing is, you know, we know that fists come in different sizes, different poskim have different values, some four inches, some three inches, some three and a half, I insist in going in both directions. I insist not on three lavud straps, but on four lavud straps, and each one should be about eight inches apart, going up to a height of about forty inches.
And that way I'm covering from from both directions. I'm going with a, call it minimal shiur of three tefachim and a maximal shiur of three tefachim. But importantly, whatever shiur you're doing, if you show up and see a sukkah, a restaurant sukkah, whatever, and they have these lavud straps and they're kind of all over the place, That's a problem. or this wasn't assembled properly, it wasn't to me that's a a red flag that this is not a sukkah that is being properly supervised.
Sometimes, I said just have them come out and add some string around it, whatever it is. And again, it's a very simple fix if you understand, if you have the application what it is we're trying to do. And the vendors are always very happy to to comply, and they're very happy to make a kasher sukkah. After everything is said and done, sometimes there's a storm.
You know, if I remember correctly, last year, there was very stormy weather the night of Hoshana Rabbah. There were some sukkos I knew about that came down from some of the vendors, but it was raining throughout Hoshana Rabbah. I'm not going to insist that they put the sukkah back up when the forecast says it's going to be raining for the whole rest of Hoshana Rabbah. So if you see a sukkah that is under our responsibility and it's down or three-quarters down, that may be the reason why.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So again, to review the this important point, as far as kashrus organization organizations taking responsibility. You said you can't speak for other organizations, people should find out, but as far as the KCL is concerned, any store that has KCL supervision, the KCL is also taking achrayus for the kashrus of the sukkah?
R’ Yosef Fund: Correct. The kashrus of the sukkah, the sukkah is inspected, and the sukkah has to be on the standards that the rabbanim require of the KCL stores.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now, if people can't reach the mashgiach or the kashrus organization, if you show up to a sukkah in an establishment and you trust the establishment, is there any quick inspection of some sort that a person should do when they come to the sukkah, look around, make sure everything looks right, and then feel comfortable to eat?
R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, so I would say if the sukkah looks like they're not cutting corners.
When I say not cutting corners is there are poskim, is a Maharil who say that there's a hidur to, call it, make a sukkah to the max, four walls, etc., etc., even though lahalachah we know that less than that is kasher. The accepted psak that we allow for our vendors is, if it's kasher lechatchilah, it's kasher lechatchilah. They don't have to have a sukkah with four full walls, etc., etc. But then you have to know what you're doing, and that's when a sefer like this comes in. If a sukkah looks well-made, then you definitely don't have a question.
Now, I once, you know, we got a call, one of our vendors, someone had a large sukkah, a restaurant, and there was like a nice entrance on one side, a nice entrance on the other side, and you could walk straight through into the front door, etc., etc., and for whatever reason, to this person, it seemed like a problematic sukkah, and it was perfectly kasher, it was kasher lechatchilah, and there will be other such situations that we get calls during Yom Tov. So I'm happy that people are calling, I'm happy that they're paying attention, and yesh sachar lif'ulasech, that someone cares. Right. But if the sukkah looks like it's flopping, and the easiest is if the schach isn't really covering properly, then it it may be kasher, may not, but it there isn't someone being on top of it.
Now again, it may be that it was great before Yom Tov and the wind did its thing. We try to make sure it doesn't, but just like in our homes, it happens. In our homes it happens, and then people take personal responsibility. In the pizza store, sometimes the owner may be with his family on a Chol Hamoed trip, and and he doesn't know what's happening in the sukkah, yeah? Right.
So I don't have a problem with that. We try to make sure the sukkah is a sukkah that will last for Yom Tov, but just like in our houses, that doesn't always happen, rabos machashavos, and so too in the establishments.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Rabbi Fund, thank you so much for joining us. This is a very instructive conversation.
I would say it's long overdue that this topic be brought to the fore. So thank you very much, and thank you for all your efforts in general and at the KCL in particular, and I guess I could use this opportunity to wish you a good Yom Tov.
R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, and I appreciate being here and this opportunity. Thank you so much.
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