Part 2 of our Q&A series with Rav Shmuel Fuerst Dayan of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois to answer some of the recent questions that came in to us at Let's Talk Kashrus. This week's Q&A focuses on common dining related issues.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus  presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am honored to be joined once again by Rav  Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan  of Agudas Yisrael  of Illinois. Thank you Rav  Fuerst for being here again. We'd like to continue our discussion of Shailos  that came in and hear the Tshuvos of the Rav . So a Shaila  that we got is whether there is Bishul Akum  when it comes to a microwave. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: I saw several people discuss it if there's Bishul Akum  by microwave. We hold L'dina  there is Bishul Akum  by microwave. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Because we consider it real cooking? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Real cooking. I asked this Shaila  to Reb  Elyashiv, he told me there's Bishul Akum . I asked Reb  Shlomo Zalman, he told me there's Bishul Akum . So I asked Reb  Shlomo Zalman in his Sefer Minchas Shlomo , he says on Shabbos  he holds that it's a Bishul D'rabbanan . And Bishul D'rabbanan  has no Bishul Akum , so also on Shabbos  only Bishul D'rabbanan , so l'chora  it should be there's no Bishul Akum  by microwave. I asked him this so he told me that there's a chillek . On Shabbos  the reason why it's not D'Oraisa  because not domeh to Melachas Hamishkan . So therefore that's why in microwave is only D'rabbanan . Mashe ein kein  for Bishul Akum  is zicher  it's considered Bishul Akum , it has all the halachos  of Bishul Akum  by microwave. I asked the same thing to Reb  Yisrael Yaakov Fisher, he told me also there is Bishul Akum  by microwave. So consensus of the Poskim is there is an issur Bishul Akum  by microwave. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah, it's obviously nogaya  to the food, it's nogaya  to Keilim , right, to the microwave itself. It's nogaya  to the microwave itself as well. Yeah, I'm saying this could come up in someone's house if they have cleaning help. It comes up sometimes. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Very often it's not nogaya , most of the time people use a microwave just to reheat. So it's already cooked by a Yisroel , so it's only reheated, the issue is not Bishul Akum . But sometimes there are certain things that you do a microwave, you cook mamash  cooking, then there will be issur Bishul Akum  if something's oleh al shulchan melachim . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. A senior Posek  was quoted as saying that the harder age cheeses that we have nowadays are not like they used to be and you don't have to wait six hours after eating these cheeses. Do we follow this opinion? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: The consensus of most Poskim  is not like that and you have to wait six hours for these real hard cheeses. Now in America it's not shchiach , you don't see it that often around, especially unless it's a store that specializes in cheeses. Most of the cheeses you buy in a store are not a problem of six hours. Parmesan cheese there are Poskim  hold you wait six hours, that's consensus of most Poskim . But the regular cheese you don't have to, American type, all American type cheese you do not have to wait six hours. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Got it. How about if the cheese was melted into a dish, do you still have to wait? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Something like Parmesan cheese, something like that, it's only if it's eaten raw. But if it's melted, the Yad Yehuda says in siman pay tes , the Yad Yehuda  says that if it's melted it's no more takes away the charifus , the charifus , and therefore you don't have to wait six hours. So nogaya  certain fancy pizzas that are made with Parmesan cheese, that's when it's nogaya . Where it's melted in. Melted in, yeah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: If one eats meat and then goes to sleep for half hour, does this break the six hour wait? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: There's a Shaila  in the Achronim , Daas Kedoshim  and other Achronim  clarify the Shaila  if you sleep in between. However, L'dina  the consensus of almost all Poskim is you must wait six hours no matter if you slept, you didn't sleep, it doesn't matter how long you slept, you must wait six hours and that's it, finished. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Funny when I mentioned this question to someone and I mentioned to the Rav , he's like who ever heard of such a thing? I said there is a Shita  like that. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: It's a Shita , sure, the Daas Kedoshim , there are some people that are meikel , but l'mayseh you must wait six hours. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Otherwise they'd be going to sleep all the time. What Bracha  does a person make on schnitzel? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: I asked this Shaila  many years ago to Reb  Moshe and he told me on schnitzel you make Mezonos , you davka make a Mezonos . I says what about a B'racha Achrona ? He said no, just one Bracha , that's what Reb  Moshe told me. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Mezonos  because of the breading? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Because of the breading, right. I asked this to and I saw printed in the name of Reb  Elyashiv. Rav Elyashiv holds that it's printed in two places. One place it's printed you make only mezonos , another place he says you make two brachos . I didn't see, it's quoted in the Sefer Ashrei Ish . I didn't see the mekoros  where he wrote over there. Or it could be in one place he writes that you make two brachos  is when you have something like chicken where you have a lot of chicken and you have this coating, this breaded coating on. That could be maybe he held you make two brachos . But Rav Elyashiv  it's printed you make a mezonos . One place says make two brachos . If you make two brachos , it could be that case was a little bit different. But normally schnitzel  according to Rav Moshe for sure you make mezonos . According to Rav Elyashiv  it's a sha'ala what he held exactly. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And when you say mezonos , Rav Shmuel Fuerst: I tell everyone to make mezonos . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Make mezonos  really? Doesn't matter how thick the coating is? Even a thin coating? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: It doesn't make a difference. Made le-ta'am . And that's how we tell everyone dina . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And a bracha achrona ? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Bracha achrona  depends if you had a kezayis of it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: A kezayis  of the coating? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Of the coating, right, R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: which is probably not so shchiach . Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Depends how thick it is. Depends how thick the coating is. So the bracha  would be a sha'ala . I, to run it in my house, we use cornflake crumbs not to run into sha'alas . So it's always a shehakol . So it's always a shehakol . You run out of sha'alas  so we use cornflake crumbs and that's it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So when you're saying that it's mezonos , that's when you're using breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs, yeah. Right. I guess it's the truth is that it's hard to know. We would have to find out what they're using. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Best thing is what I do. I tell my wife uses from, what did I say again? A cornflake, cornflake crumbs, yeah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I was going to say when you go to a simcha or you go to a restaurant or you go to a takeout store you don't always know what they're using. What they're using. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: They're using breadcrumbs derech klal usually, yeah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And then according to the Rav  the bracha would be mezonos , bracha achrona  would be al hamichya  if you ate a kezayis  of the breading. Right, correct. Okay, thank you so much.

When Out-Of-Town When traveling to small towns that have local hechsherim, how does one go about finding out if they can rely on that hechsher? Rabbi Yaakov Eisenbach - Rabbinic Coordinator at the cRc, gives us some guidance on this topic. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus  presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Yaakov Eisenbach, rabbinic coordinator for food service at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you Rabbi Eisenbach for being here once again. So nice to see you. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Always such an honor to be here and coming back. Thank you. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So I want to talk to you about consumers who go out of town. I get this a lot. First of all, people travel much more than they used to, many people travel on business, people go out of town, they come to a restaurant, the restaurant may have a hashgacha  but they don't recognize what it is, they don't know what they could eat. Give us a little guideline as a mashgiach who's been doing this for over two decades, you've been there, you've seen it, you see what goes on in these places. Give that traveling consumer a few tips for what he or she should know when they're on the road. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: The number one thing I would tell a consumer or someone who travels a lot or even if you don't travel, you go once a year, twice a year, and we're going there and call our office and call the cRc or call someone you know in kashrus  and say do you know anything about this place, can I eat there. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Very often, I'll just mention, very often they don't have the ability to do so because they don't even know this restaurant exists until they get to the city and then they're there and they're in the local shul  and they or something or they meet someone and they say to someone, do you know if there's any place to eat over here and they say yeah, there's this restaurant down the block and they go there and now they're literally sitting in the restaurant. They didn't have a chance to call the cRc to prep them. They might have a few cans of sardines and tuna in their hotel room, they brought a little preparation, a few crackers, but now they're on the spur of the moment, what could they do. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: So again in these small towns we acknowledge that there are different levels based on the town and availability. So in a big city we expect the hashgacha  to be of a higher level. Certain small towns the rav  wants to bring kashrus and have some place for people to eat out in order to raise up population, people can be able to. One of the things people look at is there a shul , is there a mikvah , is there other things that a day school, a high school, Jewish infrastructure. One of the Jewish infrastructure is to have food service, place to go out for breakfast. Even if it's not but there's somewhere we can go get a coffee and not deal with Starbucks and look at the list, oh I can get this latte that's made with I don't even know how to pronounce it. So we understand so let's say we go to a bigger city where there's more mashgichim  available, where the consumer there also is of a higher level where they want and there's a small city where you can't find anybody to help and they're not doing anything big. We're not talking about fleishig  restaurants like a small bagel place, maybe milchig , so there's guidelines of what would be the minimum hashgacha , what is the maximum hashgacha . So you go to a town again you could be out in Oklahoma, I don't know and then they have a small shul there and the local rav  gives a hechsher  to a bagel place. So will you have a mashgiach temidi  there, no you probably won't. But if it's under hashgacha , you got to get a hold of the rav  and speak to him just say what are the standards that you have here. Is there any cholov yisroel  of again, depends on your standard. The bagels, where are they coming from. If you're makpid  on pas yisroel . Pas yisroel sure. So he'll tell you a lot of the places they do turn it on depending on the hashgacha  of who's giving it in that local town. That rav  might be makpid  on pas yisroel  or I've seen it where it's not pas yisroel  but they bake challahs  for them so on Fridays or Thursdays the rabbi goes in and turns it on. Oh is that right. I've seen it. I've seen it. But for somebody traveling and there's a town usually it's the local rav  who's the rav hamachshir . So that is the number one person to call. So some places if it's a fleishig  restaurant now do you have a mashgiach temidi there. We're talking more issues. I mean in a regular milchig  restaurant you have issues too. Is there bishul yisroel , just the actual cooking. Bedikas tolaim  right. Bedikas tolaim  and some people say the rav  will tell you don't eat the tolaim . I'm relying on this for the hamon am but for you it's not. Don't eat vegetables. Right.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: There are people by the way who travel who do ask these there are people I could think of who reach out to me and I'm just kind of the middle person here because they know I have a connection to many kashrus  agencies through Let's Talk Kashrus  and the people who travel and they're constantly asking I'm going to Bermuda, I'm going to Panama, I'm going talking about outside the United States or I'm traveling to the Midwest so on and so forth and they want to know what. Where they could eat. So beyond speaking to the local rov  or if you're doing it in advance you're speaking to the cRc is there anything else that someone should know? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Sure. Let's say you go and there is a mashgiach there. But you don't know let's say the hashgacha  it's a big city but you've never heard of this hashgacha . So the first thing you should ask is is there a mashgiach  here present? They say yeah so and I've taught this to my kids too you know the first thing just throw questions meaning is the tuna bishul yisrael ? Is the bread pas yisrael ? What's yoshon ? Which meat are you using? And if the mashgiach  just boom boom boom boom you know you're doing good. You know again is he there all the time? I don't know but at least you know there's somebody overseeing what's going on in the place. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You're saying the way someone answers a question tells you a lot about their knowledge their efficiency their accountability. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Some places I've been was very nice they have a list and the daily list of because certain people want this meat hashgacha this hashgacha  and they write on each day what the meat is this chicken cutlets is this hashgacha  the meat ground beef is this. So that's you know that's knowledgeable you know we have at the CRC and we're upgrading it you know as we have these screens you ever been in Chicago at a restaurant in Chicago? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I've been in one restaurant I think in Chicago. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Okay I'll call Rabbi Fishbane we'll invite you come in there we'll take you around a little bit you'll see what we do. We have these screens some have broken down we're getting we're updating it where it's going to be able because everything's online by us of all our restaurants of what they have what's the the status of the yoshon   pas yisrael  and bishul yisrael  tuna and all that but we're going to be updating it that automatically any changes they're going to be wifi into this screen that we're going to have in every restaurant and just update whenever it has to update. You can literally look it up on the spot. It's there it's sitting on we have them in our places some and then also because we're open they have my cellphone number on it you have any questions call me or my yotzei v'nichnas . And I've gotten over the years I've got some phone calls. We're here to help the consumer out and we're not trying to cover anything. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You know before we wrap up I'm sure as a mashgiach and I'm sure other your fellow mashgichim  encounter this issue of kashrus out of town because precisely because you're traveling so much right so you end up in many places in a durf  somewhere some village some town where there aren't many Jewish establishments if any right and I'm sure you so the mashgichim themselves are dealing with this challenge. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Yeah so they usually brown bag it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah is that right? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Oh yeah yeah I go to a Walmart bring along your rice cakes I always whenever I travel rice cakes and cheese you know. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Rice cakes and cheese that's the go to? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Oh that's my go to from Wisconsin you got to take the cheese but R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: and how do you keep that how do you maybe you have an ice pack or R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: No they bring when you get to the hotel you pour ice over everything. But I have the luxury I deal with food service so I have all the headaches but I get to be home every night so I don't have to travel so much get to be in yeshiva  I get to do you know but it's I can be up this week mashgiach  got sick 5:00 a.m. in the morning he says he's going to go open up but I got to find a replacement for him. So that's a different type of you know the dedication of the mashgichim . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Sure sure sure. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: And food service is I always talk about is I mean we could talk about this something else to discuss is just the day to day what a mashgiach  does compared to somebody who goes to a company you know a company you go there forty five minutes half hour check the items you get paid certain amount but a food service in normal cases they're getting paid by the hour and they're. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You know I'm happy that you mentioned the dedication of mashgiach  we'll end with this because just this week I met the rebbitzen  of a certain mashgiach  wife very dedicated mashgiach someone who's worked in the field of kashrus  for many years and what emerged from my conversation is that most people don't appreciate the dedication of kashrus   mashgichim  besides that they don't get paid enough which is a conversation for a separate episode but just their mere dedication most of which goes unnoticed and flies under the radar it really is a tremendous service to klal yisrael  all of the products we have and the plethora of items that we have in kosher supermarkets and so on and so forth is thanks to people like yourself who may be you know on the higher level and then the on the field mashgichim  who really enable us to enjoy the many items that are available. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: When I was in yeshiva  I mean as a kid bein hazmanim  I used to work for extra money so we used to do the cholov yisrael  runs in those days it's not the same now where you have three four farms with thousands of animals. And the hours and the you get paid. I'm not saying they don't pay, but the dedication like you've said here where they'll travel and they're away from home all week. Sure, I understand they got to make a parnassah  and they're doing that, but it's you know, or they sit on a farm for a whole week so they get to learn, they get to this. But the mesiras nefesh , they go away for Shabbos . You know, and I think about in food service too. A mashgiach there's Shabbos  parties, they got to take care of the mashgiach , you know, but they're not home for Shabbos . They're not home, right? Right. Right. You ever go see a thank you to the mashgiach  and say, I know it's not easy for you to get away from home and thank you and your wife that you're able to enhance our Shabbos  by being here. You know, you go all these big, big dinners that they have, right? The amount of time that goes planning it and spend behind the times and working with it, you know when it's a three, four-day convention, right? Yeah, sure. What goes behind it and the hours and the walking. I had to get three pairs of shoes at times, you know, once at Pesach  one time besides the cruises, okay, that I could tell you stories about that too. But you're 16, 17, 18 hours on your feet. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow. You know? Listen, it's unbelievable what the mashgichim  do and Rabbi Eisenbach, you as well, thank you for your immense contributions to the world of kashrus  as you've been doing for a good over 20 years. So thank you for that and thank you once again for joining us. We appreciate it. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Kashrus Complication Oftentimes at high end resorts, these statements can be heard. "The chef knows kosher", or "I'm only getting fish in a brand-new pan", or "The resort has a separate kosher kitchen". Unfortunately, these statements are becoming more and more common, but it really boils down to just 1 question says Rabbi Sholom Tendler - Kashrus Administrator at the STAR-K, "Is there a mashgiach?" Are we really going to trust non-Jewish staff about kashrus now? Who ensures the pots and pans in the separate kitchen, stay separate? Let's educate ourselves about the myriad potential problems with such resorts. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project and the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholom Tendler, kashrus administrator at the Star-K. Thank you Rabbi Tendler for joining us once again. R’ Sholom Tendler: Pleasure, thank you for having me back. Appreciate it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Today we'd like to discuss a very important topic, something that comes up, perhaps at one time it would have been only during the summer or only during travel season, but now people seem to be traveling all over all year round traveling to more exotic places. It's become very in vogue. People going to Panama, Cancun, Puerto Rico, other locales in South America, which may be not have might not have been as common years ago. I think it's become much more common. So if someone's going to a hotel with a hashgacha , obviously they should find out whether the hashgacha is reliable, what the standards are. But something that's been coming to our table here at Let's Talk Kashrus  is something called like a “kosher brand”. They go to either a resort or a private cabin or something like that, and and they literally advertise that they offer kosher, whatever that means. They don't have a hashgacha , they don't have a mashgiach . Talk about that. Is there anything to be done about that and how people should be aware that there are many kashrus  pitfalls involved? R’ Sholom Tendler: Yeah, I still get stunned by the question whenever this comes up. The typical question is I'm going to X, Y, and Z resort, it's under X, Y, and Z hashgacha , is it reliable? Fair question. Gets a fair answer. Either we know, we don't know, look into it, at least we know what we're dealing with. But this new thing that's been coming up recently where people go to these exotic resorts and private vacations in in you rent cabins or houses and they offer kosher. So, you know, in the old days, which is probably not too long ago, they would offer packaged meals, airplane meals. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean those packaged meals you find in the supermarkets. They have high-end meals that they would offer in these places, but again, it's packaged, sealed. I've been to high-end events, you know, for non-kosher companies and things like that where they offer you these sealed meals, and you can do really high-end stuff there. But we're past that at this point. Now they're offering you fresh, cooked meals. The chef claims he knows kosher. Maybe he used to work in a New York hotel, and they're offering no mashgiach , no kosher kitchen necessarily. They they claim they keep dedicated equipment for kosher. As you said, the the potential problems are are endless. It's hard to know where to start. Who's buying the ingredients? Kosher meat, kosher chicken, only fish. Yeah, kosher fish, what kind of fish? You someone saw the scales? Forget salmon. Salmon, salmon's for the sushi people. This is already more high-end stuff. How in the world do you know that a skinned piece of fish in front of you, you know, with is a kosher piece of fish? Bishul Akum , shared equipment. You really believe that if they they're short a pot or a pan that they're not taking from the kosher stock? So, I happened to have the fortunate experience that some of my mashgichim  have worked in these places with families that have gone to these kinds of resorts and decided they want to do it right. We didn't certify them. Let's be very upfront about that. But they hired a mashgiach , experienced mashgiach , to go in advance, kasher , order, bring the food, work with the chef and make it as much kosher, as kosher as they were comfortable with. Everyone according to their standards, but I'm not going to judge on that piece. But at the end of the day, I got we got a little picture of what goes on in these places. These people brought a mashgiach . So the mashgiach  was shmoozing with the chef. And it's it's like, once in a while a mashgiach  comes to one of these types of trips, but not always. And people just trust the chef. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Which which is it's ludicrous. R’ Sholom Tendler: It's completely ludicrous. It's hard to say something and we generally like to just like cushion things a little bit, but this is like there's no cushioning it. There's there's just no way to rely on such a thing unless there's a hashgacha behind it or at the very least you have a mashgiach , a shomer Torah u'mitzvos  you can confirm is standing there, is going to be there to confirm that things there are kosher. And and if you think that the non-Jewish person in the kitchen is going to make sure everything stays separate, like I have many bridges to sell you. I won't start with the Brooklyn Bridge and I won't end with the Susquehanna. We're going to go to many bridges and you're going to buy them all. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No, it it really it boggles the mind to think that people who at home have a certain standard, when they travel suddenly because some resort is offering kosher with zero certification, no mashgiach , no hashgacha , somehow we're taking their word for it and the chef who's a non-Jew who may be well-meaning, suddenly we're trusting him. The the whole thing is really hard. It's hard to believe that we're even addressing it. But apparently, it's so prevalent that it needs addressing and it needs to be spoken about and people have to be really really really vigilant. R’ Sholom Tendler: As we've gotten, I mean vigilant is a bad word for it. Just don't do it. Just don't do it. Just don't do it. And we've gotten so many questions about it and and again, it's just it's it's literally like you said, mind-boggling to think what people would rely on. I it's it's just hard to understand. And we're not speaking this because we want the job. I'll be very upfront. We are not interested in certifying your personal vacation, okay? I don't care how much money you're going to pay us. We're not interested in it. There's nothing to do with that. It's very simple is that we see what goes on and we know what goes on and you don't. You don't. Right? And people don't know what's going on in the back of restaurants and and we do. And Baruch Hashem , in places that have hashgachos , you tend to believe and like to believe and for good reason that hashgachos do a good job. But in these kinds of situations, you're totally left to rely on Chef John, whoever, and it's very hard to understand why people are being someach . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Any other final thoughts on this topic of kashrus  while traveling? R’ Sholom Tendler: So I would just encourage people. There's ways to do this right, as I mentioned in the beginning. We travel too, and we travel to far-flung places many times. A little bit of advanced planning, you can you you can do this and you can do it right and you can enjoy your vacation in exotic places. I'm not necessarily encouraging people to do that, but if you do want to go, don't just decide as you mentioned, your Yiddishkeit doesn't end when you leave your front door. I think that doesn't need to be said even. But at the end of the day, there are ways to do this with a little bit of advanced planning. Call, ask, work it out. Often, you know, it's not necessarily as complicated as you think. But the one thing you should not do is don't just take random people's word for things. And make sure they're coming from reliable sources that you would rely on in your own home. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Got it. Thank you so much

The Beer Balagan So much confusion in the air regarding the recent news about beer. Is it kosher? Does it need a hechsher? Is this relevant to everyone? Do I need to stock up on beer before January 1st, 2026? We interviewed Rabbi Sholem Fishbane - Kashrus Administrator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council, and Executive Director of AKO, to find out exactly what is going on with the beer. Let's listen in to this insightful conversation. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness project. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, executive director of AKO and Kashrus  administrator of the Chicago Rabbinical Council. The reason we're meeting today is a little different than our usual episodes where we address a wide range of kashrus  topics. Today we're addressing something more timely, and that is the, what I'll call the beer tumult. Now we usually don't respond to tumults, right? That's not our style, but over here, we, and I say we, Let's Talk Kashrus , the greater kashrus world, has been inundated with questions about beer specifically after what I would say a number of East Coast hashgachos  released a statement regarding beer that seemingly changed the status quo with regard to domestic beer, at least that's the way I understand it. So let's get into it. What exactly was the statement and what surprised people? R’ Sholem Fishbane: These agencies that you mentioned did not release a statement to the public at all. It was an internal document that were sent to their establishments discussing a policy change. Like you said, a tumult or a kashrus  crisis is when we find there's a major problem, uh-oh, alerts and go out and let the world know do this. That's not what happened. It was a calculated, and I want to say three to four year discussion of when should we make a policy change to go from taking beers without a hashgacha  to only having beers with hashgacha in our establishments or parties that are under our hashgacha . Huge difference. And it was somewhat of a leaked document. It was not supposed, yes. And I'm quoting those hashgachos . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That makes this much more exciting by the way. R’ Sholem Fishbane: It was a leaked document. It was not supposed to go to the public. It was supposed to go to their establishments and give them time. And what's the biggest raya ? It says there starting January 1st. If it would be a crisis or something terrible, we would be not starting January 1st. And I heard the greatest questions at the convention, like, so if I buy beer on December 31st and I go over the international date line and I come back, does it choizer v'ne'or ? These are like the great questions, like does everyone have to stock up? Nothing is changing in terms of the metzius . My son told me in yeshiva  they they decided the reason. There's a new law passing January 1st that's going to affect all the beers. Also not true. Nothing's changing. It was a policy decision and it's important for us to understand what's going on. And that is that we've been debating internally and we at Kashrus  Awareness, if you recall, have had two episodes on beers. Rabbi Neihaus did a very thorough video explaining what beer is. I explained, I did an episode has to do with our, with our establishments and how we're going to be approaching it at each establishment. Just as a side note, we have so many, liquor has become a big part of the simchas , as we know. And many times a mashgiach , he he look, he walks in on a Shabbos and there's a bar there, he doesn't know what to do. He can't look it up online. We actually just created just last week, a CRC Kosher Liquor Guideline, a pocket where the mashgiach  can put in there, and it goes through, you know, beer and brandy and bourbon and rye and Canadian whiskey, gin, you know, a double sided. It tells us, you know, bekitzur  what the things are. Because this is the metzius  today. So what what was happening was that liquor happens to be pretty much of an established thing. Beer specifically for, you know, hundreds, maybe thousands of years, where there it was very specific, very pure. You can only use four or five things. And that is still the case in most of the world besides the United States, most of the world besides the United States, okay? And in the United States, they started playing around like we spoke about many times, craft breweries, this brewery, that brewery. And because of that, we, we in the industry, have becoming more and more nervous, like how much longer can we still feel that beer being made in the United States is is l'chatchila  kosher? And even if that beer that you picked up is not flavored or anything like that, but what happened to the keilim  and the other stuff that are going on? That's what's going on. And in particularly, there's, there's something we've been we've been finding more and more with beer, again in the United States mostly, is that they're able to use and they use sometimes lactose. Now, why do they use lactose? It has to do with the way lactose basically is a gives it a certain sweetness and smoothness that doesn't get lost when they when they do the brewing, as opposed to some of the other things. So it stays with it. It's very good. And here's the key. The key is that because beer is not moderated by the FDA, rather by something called TTB, they don't have to declare like on food. They don't have to say there's there's no allergies, even though lactose itself might not be an allergen because there's no protein in it. But beside, they don't have to, they don't have to write ingredients. It's a different type of... regulation. And and because lactose is becoming common, more common rather, I don't want to make this a it's not a crisis. It's just it's becoming more common. And lactose not only is milchig , but it could actually be non-kosher because it comes from, you know, cheese. Therefore we're we're becoming more and more concerned. We in kashrus agencies tried to give over to the tzibbur  what's called shailah -free. And when a person walks into our place, they are not looking for bedieveds . Again, this is not the consumer. So, you know, I want to give an example. I remember when I first got into kashrus , we the agencies weren't really looking at what's called transportation trucking. You know those big trucks on the side of the road they're going on down the road and all that. It was too difficult. We were we were still dealing with making sure every ingredients were kosher. We always had, you know, we we knew that even if there was something non-kosher that the truck had previously done, hauled, it was going to be kosher bedieved . like the Shach  and all of that. But once we got our we were we were very solid with everything else, we we went into, okay, now no more of the of bedieved , whatever is, no more shailah -free. And we and now Baruch Hashem , all the transportation in America is is lechatchila mehadrin . And you could if you if you look through the history of kashrus , and I can write a book on this, how we as we grow, the klal Yisrael  and and our and our buying power has grow, we're able to do this more and more and more. And that's that's mamish  what's going on with beer. We have had the opportunity now that Baruch Hashem  to say, we we don't need to do this anymore. We don't we don't need to rely on taking beers that are problematic or at least have a shailah  to it. And therefore, let's get are we ready to get to that point where only you should use a beer that are under hashgacha , meaning the the party's under hashgacha , with hashgacha . That was the debate. Let me explain to you the problem. The problem is that if you look at the most popular beers, let's say the top 10 beers in the world, eight out of 10 of them don't have a hechsher . So how can we go ahead and put out a list and and and insist, right, that you can only have a with a hechsher  if you you kimat  can't get anything good? So what and so what happened was that this this has been the debate. And on top of that, if let's say we came out and the world and a word got out that you should only get something with a hechsher . The hashgachos say that. And you say, okay, I follow the hashgachos . And then you walk into a shalom zachar , their own rav , and he has a Heineken on the table. Heineken doesn't have a hechsher . What are we doing? Right? You understand from it there's a there's almost like a big picture chinuch aspect. Right, right. Gzeira she'efshar yachol la'amoid bo . La'amoid bo , right. When Chazal  said it, they knew there's real it's a real thing. So this was the debate. I'm talking two, three, four years, you know, really geshmak  debates in the kashrus world, in the AKO executive, what we should and should not do. And what we we discovered was that every agency has their kehilah and they they can decide for themselves. And that's what happened. At at the last AKO executive meeting, we we we the the what you mentioned, the larger East Coast hashgacha  said, you know what? We feel in the East Coast and based on the the clientele that we're servicing, we think it's time to make that turn. And v'rayo , we're not doing it, it's not a crisis. Starting whatever it is, we're going to start, we're going to make that turn, we're going to do that corner. And other agencies said, we're with you. We're not there yet. Because we cannot give a list, and if you look at the list that was given out originally, even though there were several hundred, but some of the more popular ones, if you read the the the actual the the not the fine print, but it said there things like only available in UK or Belgium. Shkoyach , but the shalom zachar  is in Lakewood. Right? And what what the chiddush  is is that the agencies felt that they could include some of the the top five popular beers based on very, very first-hand knowledge. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Included in the kosher list? Yes, even though it doesn't have a hashgacha . R’ Sholem Fishbane: So why? So and I'll tell you what they are. Heineken, Modelo, Budweiser, Stella, Corona. Why? Because it turns out that it actually we have to thank the importers for Israel. There are many these these beers that make it to Israel. So that those that go to Eretz Yisrael  have hashgachos . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: They do? R’ Sholem Fishbane: They do have hashgachos . They're they're special runs. So the agencies that are visiting those for the special runs, now are in the factories. They're saying eidus  of what's going on of what's going on in those in those major ones. And therefore even though it doesn't have a hashgacha on it, there's enough yedios  and eidus  and knowledgeable in the factory to say we're comfortable adding to the list. That's a major breakthrough. That's a major breakthrough. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And is that a new revelation? R’ Sholem Fishbane: That's a new revelation. And that that's going to be started to be included. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So therefore, but I will say also that because of that revelation, it also somewhat weakens the whole project in the sense that, okay, so now there are some beers I could use without hashgacha . Are you not concerned that now people will just kind of say that this whole awareness is kind of lacking. So I appreciate that's a very human mentality is that when you have a Torah she'b'al peh , all of a sudden the Torah she'b'ksav  falls apart. R’ Sholem Fishbane: Exactly. Great point. Great point. So if it would just be Torah she'b'al peh  that I called the company and I and I spoke to them and everything's okay, put it on the list, you're right. But this is actually much stronger because there's there's the hashgachos  are going into the factories. Uh, so therefore that's why those hashgachos  felt. But at the end of the day, you're it it is a it is a valid point and therefore they're not going to be expanding. You know, they're not they're not looking to start expanding more than this. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So it's just those five classic. And will it be publicized? Because it has not been publicized as of yet, right? Right. Just to address before you go further, the January 1st date also was technically an arbitrary date, right? Just because the start of the new secular year, but it didn't have any scientific or or kashrus  importance, that particular date, right? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Right. There was nothing nothing like like my son's theory in yeshiva , right? No, nothing. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No new laws, nothing nothing's changing as of that date. It's just that you needed a date to choose to choose to give them enough time. to give people enough time to prepare and so on. R’ Sholem Fishbane: Right. It really is an, we'll call it an American problem. Because you're saying that what? That around the world they haven't been don't play around, that craft breweries are not throwing in oysters, they're not they're not putting bacon in. I think I mentioned last time, you know, one of the our fellow um colleagues in in Boston. So he walked into a craft brewery and they were putting in pepperoni pizza into it, and they put in ham and this. That's that's like an American craft micro. And and the reason why, again, the reason why the hashgachos  felt that it was time to turn the corner is when you go shopping, it's very hard for you to actually know is this a craft brewery, is is one of the big boys. You know, it's hard to know. So, we it was just too confusing and therefore, you know, it was time to turn the corner. So I hope I'm giving somewhat of a background of what the debate was. And it's very similar, there's so many other examples. I gave the transportation, but there there's canned vegetables. You can go through the history of food and and kashrus . And and and as both we've gotten stronger and as and together with the industry changing, that the agencies had said it's time for us to become shaila -free on this as well. And that's what's going on over here. And there are there are hundreds if not thousands of ingredients that we call in the industry group-one that we still accept without a hashgacha because we know that that's just a pure type of product. Now, the other agencies that aren't there yet are not because in principle they feel this, you know, they're wrong, but it's because based on, as I said, demographics, other things, they feel that their kehillah  are, you know, in other words, if it would be a real shaila , there's nothing to talk about. We're talking about thinking about the future, when is that time to turn that corner? Shaila -free is always a good way to go. Right. There's close to 900 beers that I know about offhand that have a hashgacha . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: 900 beers? Is that right? Yeah. Have a hashgacha ? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Have a hashgacha . Wow. You know, uh, you know, all the Sam Adams, there are. There's there's that's another reason, and maybe I should have said this in the beginning, another reason why these hashgachos  said, let's turn the corner January 1st, is because there's an option. If we would do that today, let's say on scotch, there's almost nothing to drink. I mean, there's not enough good scotch or Irish whiskey that have hashgacha  yet to be able to turn the corner. But because beer had there are so many, you know, maybe there's up to a thousand, you know, whatever the number. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now if someone if someone wanted to explore that list of beer with hashgacha , where where could they look or where could they check? R’ Sholem Fishbane: So the CRC, you know, who I my day job, uh, we have a a very a full list of beer? a very, but we have we divide into three. Okay. We these agencies sent out a spreadsheet to their and you know, I'm sure it's available somewhere. Um, you know, I I don't think they're they're not releasing that. But I can tell you what we we've done. We have a very thorough liquor list. It's probably the largest in the world of researched beer, of liquor b'klal , and we divide it into three categories. Um, certified, approved, which means we did the research, and non-recommended. Okay? So someone like yourself or, you know, a yirei shamayim  or that that you I just want I just want certified. Very easy. Uh, you know, you could you can choose on our website which ones to give the whole list, just certified list, just the non-approved list, you know, whatever you want. So the options are, that would be uh, I'm not just saying because I work for the CRC, it happens to be, you know, kudos to Rabbi Niehaus who does a tremendous amount. research. And he himself, he stopped researching every time a new beer comes out. We're not researching the beers that don't have hashgacha . We feel we researched the classics, we're good to go, and Klal Yisrael should be has sufficient amount of beer to get us through at least one shalom zachar . Right, right. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Well, we appreciate you shedding light on this. I can't tell you how many questions I got about this in the last few weeks and people just want to be informed. And I'll end with this. I'm always impressed by the bikush , the desire of people to do the right thing. Time and again, I'm blown away. People come over and they come with questions with tremendous sincerity. And it's not just recommendations for topics that we should speak about here on this program. It's real questions. They want to do the right thing. So many people ask me for your number. They would love to call you day and night with questions. R’ Sholem Fishbane: And they ask me for your number. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That's just because they want to be on the program. But all jokes aside, people do want to do the right thing. They want to reach out and this program enables them to do that. So Rabbi Fishbane, thank you again for all that you do for our project and specifically for coming in today to shed light on this very important topic.  .

Kosher Breakfast Hacks So, you're on vacation and the hotel has a free continental breakfast. What can you eat? What must be avoided? Rabbi Sholom Tendler - Kashrus Administrator at the STAR-K gives us some seasoned travel hacks for our next vacation. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project and the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholom Tendler, kashrus administrator at the Star-K. Thank you Rabbi Tendler for joining us once again. R’ Sholom Tendler: Pleasure, thank you for having me back. Appreciate it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Today we'd like to discuss a very important topic, something that comes up, perhaps at one time it would have been only during the summer or only during travel season, but now people seem to be traveling all over all year round and we get inundated with questions about what people can eat, what they can't eat, they're staying at hotels, staying in hotel rooms, so on and so forth. So let's start with a basic question that we get, which is when people are staying at hotels, they want to know if they could eat from the free breakfast that's offered, the often known as the continental breakfast. Give us a little guidance as to what people may or may not eat in such a setting. R’ Sholom Tendler: Sure, popular, very common question. Just a little background and that is is that, we're not just coming over here from people calling us with questions and we deal with restaurants and things like that, so we'll answer your questions. We all travel too in the kashrus world, not just on vacation. Personally myself, I am a 1k member on United, so we're out and about, we are out there having the same situations that everyone else is and we've, as they say, been there and done that ourselves. So we've been to these continental breakfasts in the hotels and we've been able to see because we're also hungry and we want to know what's going on in there. So the first thing I would tell you is is that you really have to check, there are potentially a number of items that could be enjoyed by the kosher conscious consumer, but it's something that people really have to check into. And the reason for that is is because let's go through some of the more popular items, the bagels, the breads, the muffins. So obviously if they're prepackaged, usually in cheaper places, you could see for yourself is a hechsher  on the package or not and make your own determination. Often they're just put out in the spread, loose. In that kind of situation, you really want to ask to see the box. And don't just go over to the front desk or the lady who's setting up and say, are they kosher? And they'll say, yeah. Maybe someone was there previously and asked, maybe yeah, maybe not. At the end of the day, you have to recognize the fact that they don't keep kosher and I always like to tell people, keep in mind that the most upstanding, ehrlich  non-Jewish person has as much care about kashrus as you have for halal . That's not a political statement, but just think about it, you're not in tune to the nuances of what we're looking for. A story that just happened recently, I love saying this over is that we had an event, a waitress comes over to one of the mashgichim  and asks to borrow a phone charger. Right? And she takes the phone charger, goes over to the wall, and is about to plug it in, turns to the mashgiach  and says, can I plug it in, or you need to plug it in? Right? So you see Baruch Hashem  they're well trained, but they also have no clue what we're trying to do over here, really no clue. So that's something you have to keep in mind. When you're asking your question, you have to really confirm everything yourself. And I always like to throw it back at the people. If you would call us, I work for the Star-K, and say how do you certify that factory? Very simple. We call the factory and ask them, is it kosher? And they say yes, so we issue them a letter of certification. You'd run the other way, rightfully so. Why would you do that to yourself? Right? So ask to see the box. Maybe it's Lender's Bagels or something like that, one of the well-known brands that has a hechsher  on it. That's fine. You want to confirm that. The other thing you want to be concerned about potentially is that they a lot of times they will reheat them in an oven before they put them out loose to defrost them, reheat them to give them a little more fresh tasting, a little fresher. So the best thing would be is you could try to ask them if they reheat them. Otherwise, take a bag right out of the box, take bagels straight out of the box. Maybe it's a little bit frozen, might be a little bit defrosted. Still, that's the safest thing to do and usually they're more than happy to accommodate. I've been in many situations myself, they're they they try to accommodate guests as much as possible. You can tell them a kosher rule, don't worry, they're not going to ask too many questions and people always wonder, oh it sounds weird. I'm very self-conscious asking those questions. Like listen, in America, walk out in the streets, you're not weird, okay? It's just your religion, Baruch Hashem , we're doing it because of your yiras shamayim . Ask the question, you'll be fine, you'll get an answer. Worst case scenario, they'll say no. I've never had that happen to me before. Never. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I think that's good to hear. R’ Sholom Tendler: Never had that happen to me before and I've been in the situation many times. So that's as far as the bagels go. Moving on to other items, there's the hard-boiled eggs. We got a lot of questions about that. So first of all, hard-boiled eggs, bishul akum , right? Not for me who just learned that recently, straight up bishul akum . So there's really no heter  on that unless they're buying them already cooked, which is possible. You get commercial. With a hechsher . They come in like a big a big bucket with a hechsher  on them, and then obviously that would be okay, but you want to confirm that. The waffle maker, just stay away. I have seen so many situations with the waffle maker. They don't necessarily always use the same brand. They tell you they do. Again, same thing. Because they told you you do, you're going to rely on that. There's plenty of stuff that they put on there that might not be 100% kosher. They they re-oil it often in the kitchen as well. Just just it's not worth relying on the waffle maker. Will I tell you it's treif if you get a waffle off there because you did it already this past summer when you were traveling? I'm not going that far to say that, but again, we're talking about people that when you travel. we're yirei Shamayim , we try to do the best job possible. So this is something that in general people should be aware of. It's not so simple, you should try to stay away from it. Even the toaster oven, whether it's the pop-up toaster or the belt toaster. I have seen myself, because I've been in many hotels, what goes on in those things. First of all pop-tarts, which a lot of them are not kosher, go in the pop-up toaster, and then on the conveyor toaster, many times people are putting all kinds of things in, they're warming up their pizza from supper. I have seen this. Hot dogs, right through there. Wow. That's as far as that goes. As far as the cereals go, same thing, check the box. Most of the time it's just the regular Cheerios and Raisin Bran that they have that you'll buy, the Kellogg's or General Mills, whatever. Sometimes it's the Malt-O-Meal, all pretty much kosher, but that's something again you should confirm. Apple juices, orange juices, 100% pure juices typically are considered okay. Cranberry juice is not. Cranberry juice is very often, very often, have grape juice added as sweetener because they're very tart. So that's something you'd want to avoid unless it has a proper hashgacha  on it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: How about if they have non-dairy milk? like almond milk, things like that, oat milk. First of all, do those need a hashgacha ? R’ Sholom Tendler: They do need a hashgacha . You'd be hard pressed to find without a hashgacha  in the United States at least. But very common now, especially to someone like myself who is lactose intolerant, I'm very in tune to it. Everybody has those available, so especially for the cholov Yisroel  conscious consumers, it's something that's a big boon. And those are some, those are things that are pretty much available in many, many places. Oat milk, by the way, if you're makpid on yashan , at some point in the season would be a yashan  problem. Okay. So just keep that in mind as well. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay. How about coffee and tea and hot water in that setting? R’ Sholom Tendler: Those are those are going to be okay. Those are going to be those those machines are only used for plain coffee. They're not using anything funny or flavored or Frappuccino’s or refreshers or any kinds of things that make coffee shops potentially complicated. It's straight, simple, plain coffee which is kosher. in those things. And obviously the cheeses would have to be kosher. Very unlikely you're going to find kosher cheeses in a type of hotel situation. Yogurts as well. There are some, let's say, yogurts that have a very reliable hashgachos . You could have the same brand of yogurt that doesn't have a hashgacha  on it. There's anytime you have that, there's a reason for that. And in this kind of situation, yogurts typically contain gelatin. If it does not have a reliable hashgacha , it's almost guaranteed it contains treif gelatin in it. So that's the reason why it doesn't have a valid hashgacha on it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: As far as utensils, plates, bowls, if they don't have disposable, is there any way that you could use these items on cold and things like that? R’ Sholom Tendler: So typically cold, especially if it's derech arai , then something you could rely on, but it's not geshmak . Derech arai , I would say most poskim  would be meikel  on it, but ideally you want to just stick to disposable. If they don't have it available, bring your own. Obviously if a hotel has fresh cooked to order items, those, there's nothing to talk about, they're made in a treif  kitchen, there's nothing really you can get from such a menu. In the hotel room itself, let's move to that. So you have the coffee maker in the hotel room, whether it's a Keurig, whether it's a single serve cup. Those are pretty much okay. They don't really make treif Keurig cups anymore. They used to make soups, they don't make those anymore. If you want to be extra careful with the Keurig, you can just run it through a hot water cycle first to be extra careful. Even if they have the old-fashioned carafes, which I haven't seen in a while. The old-fashioned carafes again, I know during COVID, there was a guy that made a TikTok video how he made chicken soup in that thing. But we're not in bachurim diras  here, we're being so creative. Typically you don't have to worry about that, you could use the coffee machine in the room. Okay. The microwaves in the room, you should just double wrap everything you put in there. In two bags, doesn't have to be mamash  hermetically sealed. Any two bags would work. Even if it opens up a little bit, also it's okay. That's something you should do. Don't bother trying to kasher  the microwave unless you're experienced in kashering . Just just don't. Double wrap. Just double wrap. Safest thing to go, safest thing to do, and stick to that. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I want to go back just to one thing in the hotel. I think we we omitted, and it it comes up not only in a hotel setting but people traveling, they go to, you know, convenience stores and that is cut-up fruit. Cut-up fruit in a hotel and cut-up fruit in, you know, you go to one of these convenience gas stations, sometimes they have them packaged. Talk about the cut-up fruit for a moment. R’ Sholom Tendler: So again, so keep in mind with cut-up fruit, there are plenty of poskim , including Shulchan Aruch , that seem to say it will be okay if you don't see any treif  residue on there. You could assume that there was bittel  by the time the knives were finished cutting all the fruit. And there's certainly merit to that, not that it needs my haskama to say that. At the end of the day though, just knowing what goes on in kitchens, it just does make me personally feel a little uncomfortable knowing that this was cut literally side by side with treif . And that is what goes on, by the way. That is what goes on. Supermarkets may be a little bit better because they tend to have vegetable departments, but I've seen it myself. Not always. I've been in one supermarket where just because of space constraints, they moved the vegetable check vegetable cutting and fruit cutting into the meat room, because again, there's no allergen concerns. They couldn't move into the fish, they move into the meat room. Did not make me so comfortable looking at that kind of a setup. Then you have places, let's say like Wegmans, where they have you can see in front of you a separate fruit and vegetable cutting department. So that really there's no problem with. And that you could do. The other thing that I'd like to mention also is that especially when you're traveling. traveling, packaged fruit that you find in places that don't have a place area to cut up food. 7-Eleven, Sunoco's, Jersey Turnpike stores, they have cut up mangoes and cut up apples and things like that, 100% kosher l'mehadrin , even without a hashgacha . Those will come from companies that just package fruit and vegetables all day long. It's all they do. And really no problem at all. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You know where I've actually seen it? I'm curious. Very often in Manhattan, you'll find on the corner, on the corner you'll see like these little fruit shops under a little umbrella, and very often they're selling cut up fruit there. Now, I would never buy it just because my my my kashrus antenna goes up. I don't feel comfortable. R’ Sholom Tendler: I mean that guy brought those knives from his house. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah, I don't know, right, exactly. I don't know how comfortable I would be, some guy selling it on the corner. But you're saying when you're buying it in a store, very often it's it's being produced commercially or most of the time. R’ Sholom Tendler: If the store doesn't have a place to cut fruit and vegetables, like a Sunoco station, 7-Eleven, they're getting it from a company that makes fruits and vegetables and that is 100% kosher l'mehadrin . There's no problem at all. Thank you so much.

“The kiddush will be held in Rabbi Cohen’s shul, so I’m sure everything is fine.” Although Rabbi Cohen is the Mara d’Asra, there is a good chance he is uninvolved in the kashrus of the simchah hall associated with the shul. For several years, Rabbi Sholem Yehudah Fishbane, executive director of Association of Kashrus Organizations (AKO) and kashrus administrator for Chicago Rabbinical Council (cRc), has been working with his associates to develop a protocol for shuls to ensure acceptable hashgachah in their simchah halls. There are vast lifestyle discrepancies between members of shuls spread throughout the country. Because of this, coupled with the complexities of assigning responsibility for kashrus supervision, it took time for the AKO Shul Initiative to gain traction. Finally, the volunteers’ long, hard work has come to fruition, with the completion of a template for shuls to develop customized kashrus guidelines, which they can then implement to upgrade the standards in their kitchens. Rabbi Sholem Yehudah Fishbane by Rabbi Binyomin Zev Karman 18 July 2, 2025 “Over the years, we have discovered that although the standards of kashrus supervision in general have improved exponentially, there are three areas, namely summer camps, shuls and yeshivos, where improvement is warranted,” Rabbi Fishbane says. “The shul, which is the bedrock of the Jewish community, has been overlooked when it comes to hashgachah; kashrus professionals have banded together to offer their services free of charge to promote the necessary upgrades in this area.” In the first part of this series (“Keeping Camp Kitchens Kosher,” Parashas Shelach/June 18), Inyan explored the efforts of dedicated kashrus professionals to inspect camp kitchens and suggest improvements. In the second installment, Inyan examines the challenges related to shul kitchens and strategies for implementing higher standards of kashrus. Sample of a letter to be sent to a ba’al simchah informing of the hashgachah standards of the shul and simchah hall. 19 Rabbi Sholey Klein, kashrus administrator, ORB Kosher In the late 1950s, Harav Leib Malin, zt”l, Rosh Yeshivah of Beis Hatalmud, spent some time at Zucker’s Glen Wild Hotel during bein hazmanim. One day, Mr. Shmuel Zucker found Rav Leib wandering through the pantry and kitchen, inspecting the various ingredients on the shelves. When questioned by Mr. Zucker, Rav Leib explained that if people saw him eating in the hotel dining room, they probably assumed that he had checked out the establishment’s kashrus, and they were relying on him to ensure the food met the highest level of kashrus. “I feel an achrayus (responsibility) to check things out for myself so that people relying on me have what to rely on,” he explained. Although Mrs. Zucker prepared special vegetables for Rav Leib, according to his strict criteria, the Rosh Yeshivah wanted to make sure that the entire operation was up to the highest standards so as not to inadvertently mislead people. Indeed, he even traveled to Woodbourne and checked out the bakery from which the hotel purchased their bread and challos. “Some Rabbanim are under the impression that their job is limited to the beis haknesses, delivering shiurim and paskening she’eilos,” Rabbi Sholey Klein, the kashrus administrator of Orthodox Rabbinical Board (ORB) of Broward and Palm Beach Counties Florida (Boca) and a leading member of the AKO Shul Initiative committee says. “They are not necessarily aware if an affair is held in the simchah hall of their shul; 20 people presume that the Rav has signed off on its kashrus. One of the major concepts we have been working on is to establish a protocol for standards of kashrus, under the auspices of each shul’s Rav.” Rabbi Fishbane elaborates on the reasons Rabbanim are often uninvolved in the supervision of their shuls’ kitchens. “I served as a Rav for several years, and I can testify that a Rav’s time is consumed with his pastoral duties. This includes not only delivering shiurim and drashos but also visiting hospitals, being involved in shalom bayis and helping congregants with other family issues. Besides the time he spends, these duties are draining, leaving less energy for him to devote to areas not directly under his purview. “There are other factors that divert a Rav from getting involved in his shul’s kitchen: “Some do not understand the seriousness of the pitfalls, relying on the religious integrity of his kehillah to make sure everything is in order. While the members may be reliable people, the hazards of a kitchen inevitably raise concerns, and someone must accept responsibility for it. “Others, who may see the need for greater supervision, shy away from taking this on. ‘I can undertake only one or two battles with my baalei batim per year, and I do not want to pick a fight with their stomachs,’ one Rav quipped. “Furthermore, a Rav who is an employee of a board of directors may prefer to steer clear of taking on the board over this matter. “Finally, there are some Rabbanim who feel that if they cannot bring the supervision of kashrus up to perfection, they are unwilling to work on a partial upgrade. In the famous words of Winston Churchhill, ‘Perfection is the enemy of progress.’” As part of the Kashrus Awareness campaign, having taken guidance from AKO, Rabbi Fishbane focused on one locale, working with some 30 shuls in attempting to develop a minimum standard of supervision in their kitchens. “When we investigated what was taking place before we began, we discovered that many venues allowed caterers to bring in equipment they had rented from other establishments. Not only was there a problem of mixing milchigs and fleishigs, we actually found some who were renting equipment from nonkosher establishments!” Rabbi Fishbane reports. “In addition, unchecked produce was brought in, non-mevushal wines were used, despite having gentile waiters serving at the event, and homemade foods were served without any supervision. Amira l’akum, having non-Jewish workers perform prohibited work on Shabbos, was rampant. In many cases, while the Rav of the shul was an expert in Halachah, he was not a kashrus professional and was not attuned to what needs to be done in a commercial kitchen. “When we enter a kitchen, our antennas are up, looking for things that a non-professional would not take note of. We’ve seen these things dozens of times in the past, and we have solutions for them. Having a kashrus professional inspect a venue and offer his advice as to improving the supervision is essential. And once again, as with the camps, we are offering this service without charge,” Rabbi Fishbane stresses. Amira l’akum, having non-Jewish workers perform prohibited work on Shabbos, was rampant. In many cases, while the Rav of the shul was an expert in Halachah, he was not a kashrus professional and was not attuned to what needs to be done in a commercial kitchen. 21 July 2, 2025 6 Tammuz 5785 “Our objective is to set the shul up for success. we offer advice—not criticism.” In September 2023, AKO’s shul ommittee held a meeting in the offices of the Kof-K, where representatives of Agudath Israel, the Orthodox Union (OU), Young Israel, Hisachdus Harabbanim (CRC), Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) and representatives of Lakewood Rabbanim got together to plan a strategy for tackling this problem. Several ideas were forwarded to bring awareness to this issue, including establishing a template from which shuls could develop their individual kashrus standards. In addition, AKO kashrus professionals would make themselves available to be scholars-in-residence at shuls for a Shabbos shel kashrus, which would help educate and excite people about kashrus. A free consultation and assessment of the shul kitchen would be offered as well as assistance in implementing customized guidelines for each shul. “A bonus of a Rav and a shul establishing their 22 own guidelines with AKO’s assistance is that the Rav or people in charge can deflect much of the possible complaints and criticism,” Rabbi Fishbane explains. “They can now say, ‘I’d love to allow Tante Celia’s chalupchus to be served, but we have adopted the AKO guidelines, which precludes serving homemade foods.’” Another aspect of the program is involving the women of the shul. Many simchos are planned by the women; having them on board is a tremendous advantage. To accomplish this, AKO arranges a separate meeting for the n’shei of the shul to explain the need for the standards as well as to get their buy in and incorporate their suggestions. In preparation for an inspection, the Rav is presented with a questionnaire that includes 86 issues that could come up in a shul kitchen on which he must rule. Once that is completed, AKO asks the Rav to designate two shul members to be responsible for kashrus, assigning them appropriate, respectable titles. These appointees will be trained based on the Rav’s psakim, which will facilitate proper management of any guidelines. In the event that a new kitchen is being built, AKO will help design it, hardwiring the milchige/ f leishige work areas and other protection needed to ensure a high standard of kashrus. “We also try convincing the board to include responsibility for the kitchen’s kashrus in the Rav’s contract,” Rabbi Fishbane continues. “This is critical to maintaining the kashrus standards. Some Rabbanim may say, ‘I am Rav of the shul; what do I have to do with an outsider renting the hall for a vort?’ This is false, because when a person hears there is a simchah at Rabbi Friedman’s shul, he assumes Rabbi Friedman is in charge of the kashrus. We also recommend the Rav put on a proverbial apron to show that he takes his shul’s kashrus seriously. This will include occasional drop-ins to see that his guidelines are being followed.” To tackle the difficulty of tailoring a system for shuls in different locales and with different clienteles, AKO initiated what they refer to as the “five shul system” — it helped create a template that other shuls can follow and modify as they develop their own unique guidelines. Rabbi Nesanel Snow, kashrus administrator of Rabbinical Council of Bergen County (RCBC) Kosher Supervision based in Teaneck, New Jersey, is one of the leaders of the AKO Shul Initiative and explained the “five shul concept.” “One of the challenges we faced is that shuls are in different locales with diverse memberships; there is no one-size-fits-all template. It was important for us to get a sense of the disparity of the shuls and communities. For example, we can have a small shtiebel where everyone is comfortable eating at each other’s homes, versus a large shul with a catering hall. The variables are many, as opposed to restaurants, where basically all high-end meat eateries are more or less alike. “We began a pilot program in six communities around the country in which we had a kashrus professional introduce the program to five shuls in their area and get feedback. After many months of pushing, we succeeded in several communities. We began with the questionnaire to ascertain what works and then discussed and created guidelines. This helped develop buy-in from the shuls, as Rabbi Nesanel Snow presenting to the Rabbanim at the Agudah Convention about AKO’s new Shul Kitchen Kashrus Initiative  they felt we were developing it with them. The Rav would decide what position he had on certain issues and then we went over the guidelines line by line, modifying, inserting or omitting as necessary. Finally, we put the shul’s name on it, and they were ready to go. “To date, we have worked with 30 shuls to develop customized guidelines. Another nine shuls joined the program when we presented it at the Agudath Israel Convention in November 2024. With the template we created based on the five shul initiative, we are now equipped with a tool we can adapt for other shuls and implement on a national scale. “At times, we sense that some of the frummer “To date, we have worked with 30 shuls to develop customized guidelines.” 23 July 2, 2025 12 Adar 5785 shuls feel self-conscious about revisiting their kashrus standards,” Rabbi Klein shares, “but we are not looking to embarrass anyone. Our objective is to set the shul up for success; we offer advice—not criticism. “We will provide a shul with a standard operating procedure (SOP) for free, but the Rav and the members must realize that it is their responsibility to ensure quality kashrus in their shul’s kitchen; they need to step it up. We will be there to provide the know-how, but we cannot be there to push things through. Ultimately, it is up to the shul and the Rav to take ownership of their kashrus responsibilities.” Shuls who would like to take advantage of the AKO Shul Initiative should contact them via email at shuls@akokosher.org . Rabbi Yosef Eisen, Rav of Kollel Bnei Torah in Brooklyn and Rabbinic Administrator of the Vaad of The Five Towns and Far Rockaway. Rabbi Yosef Eisen, Rav of Kollel Bnei Torah in Brooklyn, has been a leading voice in the field of kashrus for decades. He served as a rabbinic administrator for the Orthodox Union (OU) and is currently the rabbinic administrator of the Vaad of The Five Towns and Far Rockaway. “When approached by Rabbi Fishbane to work with the shuls in Flatbush, I understood that the neighborhood had its own unique set of concerns that had to be satisfied for the project to be successful,” Rabbi Eisen says. “Flatbush has numerous shuls, several of which have simchah halls associated with them. The population of the neighborhood includes many people who are vigilant with their kashrus. We felt we had to aim for a high level that would be acceptable to all.” Although the Rabbanim are extremely busy with kehillah functions, their support for the project was overwhelming. “The Rabbanim spearheaded the campaign; they enlisted the help of trustworthy, dedicated baalei battim who undertook to work with us to create and implement the guidelines,” Rabbi Eisen says. “They are enthusiastic about upgrading and safeguarding the kashrus of their shuls and simchah halls. We successfully launched what we expect to become the accepted standard in all the neighborhood shuls.

Keeping the Kitchens Kosher “It was learned in the Beis Medrash of Rabi Yishmael: Sin obstructs the heart of man, as it is written, ‘V’lo sitamu bahem, v’nitmeisem bam — Do not defile yourself with them lest you become defiled through them’ (Vayikra 11:43). Do not read it ‘v’nitmeisem,’ but rather [read it] ‘v’nitamtem — and you will become obstructed’” (Yoma 39a). The Ramban and others explain that this is mainly referring to the prohibition of eating forbidden foods, which will result in a spiritual clogging of the mind and prevent the person from gaining a clear understanding of Torah. Stories are told of how children who consumed forbidden food struggled in their limud haTorah. The impurity that results from the forbidden food ultimately blocks the mind from grasping the profundity of the holy Torah (Rashi ibid.). While over the past three quarters of a century, a high level of kashrus has been attained in many circles, there remain some areas where improvement is warranted. In previous installments, Inyan reported on initiatives to enhance the kashrus in summer camps and shuls. With the new school year just around the corner, Inyan concentrates on a third area — our precious children’s educational institutions. They, too, are striving to upgrade the hashgachah in their kitchens to ensure that the food entering our children’s mouths remains untainted, and what still needs to be done to safeguard the purity of our future generations. 26 Av 5785 13 The blue milchige trays. Keeping the Mind Clear “While the words of Chazal must surely be taken at face value, I recently heard a story that proves the point about tumah directly affecting one’s spiritual level,” Rabbi Sholem Yehuda Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator of the Chicago Rabbinical Council (cRc) and Executive Director of Association Kashrus Organizations (AKO) shares as we begin our discussion concerning kashrus in yeshivah and Bais Yaakov kitchens. “At the shivah for Harav Yechezkel Munk, zt”l, a longtime Maggid Shiur in the mechinah of Telshe Yeshiva, his children related a story. Their father had verified its veracity. “‘A certain Jew had, lo aleinu, converted to Catholicism and became a priest. He remained uncomfortable in his new position, bothered constantly by guilt,’ Rabbi Munk’s son related to those who came to be menachem the family. ‘When this priest consulted with his superior, who had also abandoned his Jewish faith, the superior told him that he had experienced the same feelings and had discovered a simple solution. “For 30 days, each morning, you should wash negel vasser, and then drink the water,” the bishop said. “The tumah of the water will destroy any vestige of connection to Yiddishkeit and kedushah, and you will no longer feel any guilt for your transgressions.”’ “If Chazal say that eating nonkosher food is metamtem the lev, then we certainly must be extra vigilant regarding what we feed our children in their younger years, while they are receiving their chinuch,” Rabbi Fishbane noted. The Unattended-To Problem “Unfortunately, there is sort of a built-in trap that has prevented this area from receiving the attention it deserves,” Rabbi Fishbane expounds. “The Gemara in Bava Basra (24b) uses an expression ‘kidra d’vei shutfi lo chamimi v’lo keriri, a pot that belongs to partners is neither hot nor cold.’ It basically means that when there are numerous people involved, no one takes achrayus, responsibility, to make sure things get done. In our situation, when there are many ehrlicher members on the staff and in the administration, each individual may think that surely someone undertook to arrange proper supervision of the kitchen and dining room. Unfortunately, it falls through the cracks.” To rectify the situation, Rabbi Fishbane strongly recommends that every mossed have someone specifically assigned to be responsible for the supervision of food. Rabbi Sholem Yehuda Fishbane “Otherwise,” Rabbi Fishbane laments, “no one takes care of it and it does not happen. Unfortunately, a restaurant owned by nonreligious Jews or even gentiles that has a strict hashgachah may have a better system than a yeshivah which has not implemented one.” The Necessary Rectification “Forward-thinking Roshei Yeshivah understand that they must appoint one or two staff members to study both the halachos and the practical aspects of kashrus. This involves connecting them with someone in the field of kashrus supervision who has hands-on experience in overseeing commercial kitchens. Such a professional will pick up on everything that might go wrong in the setup of the kitchen and will suggest ways to implement improvements. Finally, it is important to compensate these staff members, so that they will take their responsibilities seriously and ensure that the system is adhered to. “In Chicago, where I live during the year between trips for my work, Harav Shmuel Yehudah Levin, zt”l, the Rosh Yeshivah of Telshe-Chicago, would constantly contact me about various details of the yeshivah kitchen. He understood very well the importance of having a system and following it.” Is It As Kosher As a Restaurant? Rabbi Chaim Tuvia Hanson, Executive Kashrus Administrator of the Vaad Harabonim of Queens, repeats an interesting idea a Rosh Yeshivah in New York shared with him. One of the most common problems in yeshivos is that too many people have access to the kitchen. The red f leishige pots. 14 “I often speak with my talmidim about avoiding restaurants. I feel that generally, they aren’t places where yeshivah bachurim should hang around,” the Rosh Yeshivah said. “However, I thought, If I demand that they eat the food we provide for them in yeshivah, isn’t it incumbent on me to make sure that the food I serve is at least as kosher as the food I am telling them to avoid? I realized that the standards in my own yeshivah kitchen, which serves my bachurim three meals a day, day in and day out, may be lower than those of a restaurant. The yeshivah kitchen must be, at the very least, as structured and as kosher as a restaurant.” Rabbi Hanson tells how he entered that yeshivah’s kitchen, sat there for about two hours and compiled a list of some 30 items in need of improvement — some minor and some major. “I identified most of these things only because I’m experienced in the field, and we have come across them numerous times in the past.” The List Rabbi Chaim Tuvia Hanson One of the most common problems in yeshivos is that too many people have access to the kitchen. “Truthfully, no one not working in the kitchen belongs there; that includes Rebbeim and bachurim alike,” Rabbi Hanson emphasizes. “Even the workers should never have keys to the kitchen. When the setup is structured properly, there is no need for any worker, whether an assistant cook or even a janitor, to have a key. They can come in and clean while the kitchen is open for food preparation, or the yeshivah can pay a trustworthy bachur some pocket money to be there when there is a need. In restaurants, it is unheard of for the staff to enter the premises before the mashgiach opens the doors for them.” Another area of concern is the intermingling of milchigs and fleishigs. “Almost every restaurant is exclusively one or the other. Having both raises the risk of mixing them up,” Rabbi Hanson says. “While caterers sometimes prepare both, they only serve one at a time. In some yeshivos, milchigs and f leishigs are offered at the same meal, and the talmidim have a choice. They may be served from different ends of the kitchen, and one side of the dining room may have tablecloths for fleishigs and the other side for milchigs. But it is insufficient. We know bachurim. While Reuven may prefer fleishigs, his buddy Shimon wants milchigs. Although they took their food separately, they want to shmooze during their meal. So Shimon pushes aside the tablecloth that was 15 August 20, 2025 26 Av 5785 placed there for fleishigs and puts his plate with the milchigs on the table itself. This is a disaster waiting to happen. “I visited a yeshivah kitchen, which, in addition to milchige and fleishige sections, had a section for pareve. I begged them to do away with the pareve, because inevitably the pareve pots were washed in the milchige sink, causing a problem that should be avoided by having only milchigs or fleishigs.” In a Bais Yaakov he visited, Rabbi Hanson was told that the kitchen used by the school was also used by the caterer who rented the hall. “The gentile who worked for the caterer had the keys, so he could let in the workers who took care of the kiddush on Shabbos. That itself was a major problem,” he relates. “Even when we were there, a delivery came into the kitchen for the school, and nothing was sealed. It seems that there are some schools that pool resources and order their food from one central provider, which then delivers it to the individual schools through a car service. This requires the food to be sealed. This was not happening, and the food was the type that needs simanim if sent with a non-Jew. It is also used by the local shul for their kiddush on Shabbos. Both fleishigs and milchigs are prepared in a relatively small space. That is more common in a small city where you have a shared kitchen. On the other hand, because it is part of a small local community, many of the students are the children of the Rebbeim and Menahalim. This makes it more personal for them and gives them both the time and opportunity to be actively involved in the kitchen — especially with everything located so close together. Cameras strategically placed to help keep an eye on things. Shteiging in Kashrus as Well Rabbi Don Kenan “For some reason, the yeshivos and Bais Yaakov schools slip through the cracks. While the general public has raised the level of kashrus, and people are quite vigilant in seeking out a proper hashgachah, the lack of supervision in some yeshivos needs to be addressed.” Rabbi Hanson deferentially says that these Roshei Yeshivah would be able to grasp in a month or two what it took him 10 years to learn. However, without hands-on experience in a commercial kitchen, it is most likely that despite their halachic knowledge, they would not pick up on the potential problems and the best solutions that a kashrus professional can offer them. Small Town With Big Challenges While Rabbi Hanson focuses mainly on yeshivos and Bais Yaakov schools in a big city like New York, Rabbi Don Kenan, Kashrut Administrator of Hartford Kashrut Commission, deals with schools in a small setting, which presents its own set of challenges. “In some ways, it’s better, and in some ways, it’s worse,” Rabbi Kenan says. “The kitchen I am involved with cooks for approximately 200 children per day, serving in the Cheder, Mesivta and in catering halls. “In this yeshivah located in a nearby town, the workers are all non-Jewish, and the bachurim help supervise the kashrus. As an example, one bachur was responsible to come each morning at 7 to light the pilots and the ovens to avoid problems with bishul akum. Lo and behold, when I davened with the baalei battim at the early minyan, they told me that that there were occasions when the bachur was not around on time, and the kitchen workers drafted one of the mispallelim to light the fires. Although this technically takes care of the problem, the concern is that if the workers become comfortable asking someone other than the mashgiach to light the fires — and the mashgiach, in turn, trusts their word that they did so — it opens the door to a dangerous possibility. One day, if the mashgiach is running late, and the workers are pressed with many tasks, they might decide to light the fires themselves and simply claim they asked someone else. They must have a sense of mirasas (awe and fear of being caught) and follow clear, established systems. Without this, it can quickly become a slippery slope.” Another problem of sharing a kitchen with the community is the lack of coordination between the two groups. “The shul uses the kitchen to keep their cholent warm for the kiddush,” Rabbi Kenan mentions, “but they were warming their fleishige cholent on the side that the school used for milchigs. Although they tried to be careful, the Menahel told me that often on Shabbos, they had problems like milchige trays being used to transport Over three decades ago, Harav Yisroel Belsky, zt”l, Rosh Yeshivah in Torah Vodaas, who was also involved in kashrus certification, instituted a hashgachah system in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas. It was an idea ahead of its time. He recruited Rabbi Yoni Levinson, then a yungerman in the kollel, to act as mashgiach for the yeshivah’s kitchen. Rabbi Levinson would check all incoming deliveries to ensure the products were up to standard and drop in as necessary to make sure the standards were upheld. “As time went on, under the guidance of the Roshei Yeshivah, Harav Yisroel Reisman, shlita, and Harav Yitzchak Lichtenstein, shlita, we upgraded the level of supervision,” Rabbi Yitzchak Gottdiener, executive director of the yeshivah, says. “We now pay someone who arrives early in the morning to be there before the kitchen opens and remains there until the cook arrives. In addition, we installed cameras to help keep an eye on what is transpiring at all times. Someone spot checks throughout the day. We implemented a system where all products and utensils are under lock and key. The outlay for the extra supervision is substantial, but we feel that a makom Torah, which caters to bnei Torah, requires the highest standard of kashrus. “This standard is kept up during the summer months as well, and the new camp Torah Vodaas where our bachurim spend the summer months maintains the same high level of supervision.” August 20, 2025 f leishige food out to the kiddush!” To their credit, even before the yeshivah employed Rabbi Kenan to set up the system for their kitchen, the yeshivah did consult with a kashrus professional and instituted several guidelines: They minimized the use of leafy vegetables; they had someone whose task it was to light the fires; and they installed cameras in the kitchen to observe what was going on there. “However, because the staff are constantly busy, they preferred to hire someone to take full charge. They understood that there’s a big difference between having a general kashrus system and having a local kashrus authority to provide professional oversight,” Rabbi Kenan says. Certification vs Guidance While not every school has the financial ability to hire a mashgiach, it is still important for them to consult with a kashrus professional to set up proper protocols and standards. “Having kashrus certification requires everything to be fully set up and perfect. Ideally, when someone walks into a restaurant, they can rely 100% on the certifying agency for every aspect of the kashrus with many details and inspections taken into account,” Rabbi Kenan points out. “Not every school has the ability to take on that expense. Nevertheless, it is vital to seek out professional kashrus guidance… A yeshiva kitchen might not qualify for certification — for example, if it regularly produces both milchigs and fleishigs, it’s very hard and rare to be kosher-certified — but it can still maintain solid kashrus standards. “Because yeshivos operate on a larger scale, along with changing staff and schedules and frequent events, this type of guidance is crucial even without official kashrus certification. It helps establish clear protocols, such as proper vegetable checking procedures, and a sense of accountability for the staff.” Raising Awareness “At the AKO, besides facilitating cooperation and interaction between the many kashrus agencies, we also constantly work to increase public awareness of kashrus vigilance,” Rabbi Fishbane tells Inyan. “So far, the feedback regarding this summer’s information campaign shows that it has already resulted in heightened awareness. It’s bolstered the public’s desire to raise the level of supervision in camps and shul. We stand ready to help yeshivos as well. We are confident that here, too, the olam will respond positively, allowing the yeshivos to maximize the harbotzas haTorah of the pure minds and neshamos of our most precious commodity: our children.” 

Over 1,000 meals are served daily in the average Jewish summer camp. For two months, breakfast, lunch and supper are cooked, baked and doled out for campers, staff and their families. The menu includes milchigs, fleishigs and pareve. “Even the busiest restaurant or caterer rarely faces an operation as complex as running a summer camp,” says Rabbi Sholom Chaim Tendler of Star-K. “The sheer volume of food, with changes from a dairy breakfast to a meat supper, is daunting. Keeping the foods and equipment separate in the limited confines of a camp kitchen is extremely difficult. “Although the chef is experienced and mindful of the need to be vigilant, the kitchen staff are often untrained local non-Jews. They may be unfamiliar with or indifferent to the laws of kashrus. Think about it this way — even if the worker has picked up Yiddish and seems knowledgeable, it’s not reasonable to expect him to have the same respect for kashrus as we do. They rationalize, especially under stress. Even the young Jewish teenagers who assist in the kitchen may be less than ideal to safeguard the integrity of the operation. They are not trained to understand commercial kitchens; you cannot expect better from them, and if you do, you are fooling yourself. “Kosher certification has come a long way over the past few decades. The many certifying organizations work hand in hand to raise the level of oversight for kosher consumers,” adds Rabbi Moshe Kaufman of KVH Kosher of Boston. “In our never ending quest to promote the highest level of kashrus, we realized that the kitchens of many Jewish summer camps were neglected. Our committee set out to encourage greater supervision of these sites; all this is done l’shem Shamayim, totally free of charge.” 14 15 22 Sivan 5785 June 18, 2025 Rabbi Moshe Kaufman inspecting the ovens to ensure bishul Yisrael and Shabbos compliance at Camp Ma’ayan Midwest. Discerning the Concern “A few years ago, as I prepared to send my daughter to sleepaway camp for the first time, there was some chatter on a group chat of kashrus professionals. Someone brought up the question of the kashrus in the camp kitchens,” Rabbi Kaufman begins. “We were surprised that no one in the group knew anything about it. We realized that this area was completely overlooked.” Rabbi Sholem Yehudah Fishbane, Director of Kashrus for the Chicago Rabbinical Council (cRc) and Executive Director of Association of Kashrus Organizations (AKO) asked Rabbi Kaufman and Rabbi Tendler if they would chair a committee of kashrus professionals dedicated to improving this matter. “Initially, we had no idea what would happen, as this was an uncharted field,” Rabbi Kaufman says. “At the onset, many mashgichim volunteered their time and expertise to this project, but in a practical sense, it was not always workable. The devoted mashgichim are spread over the country, while Jewish camps are concentrated in the Catskills, upstate New York in the Albany area, and the Poconos in Pennsylvania with a few in the Midwest. We soon came to realize that despite their good intentions, not all the volunteers were suitable. In addition, we determined that special skills were needed. A mashgiach who only had experience supervising factories was insufficient. This initiative required experience in the field of food service, meaning supervision of caterers, restaurants or stores with the bustle of chefs, waiters and the like. Rabbi Sholem Yehudah Fishbane of the AKO. Checkup Without the Check committee helps the camp develop one. “We do not approve or disapprove of any camp’s ingredients or policies. We make recommendations how to set up the kitchen in regard to milchigs, fleishigs and Shabbos. In addition, there must be a system of checking deliveries to make sure that the foods received are the ones that were ordered,” Rabbi Kaufman explains. “All too often, a supplier runs short of an item and substitutes another item for it. Buying from a heimishe distributor does not guarantee that every item in his stock is acceptable. Many such distributors carry nonkosher items as well. Mistakes happen, and there must be a system of oversight. We know of cases when treife chicken, nonkosher cheese and treife sauces were mistakenly delivered to frum camps and unfortunately used. In other cases, liquid eggs were ordered, and the item that arrived contained non-chalav Yisrael milk derivatives. Other times, the forbidden items were unchecked vegetables or Israeli produce with issues related to Shemittah, terumos or maasros. All too often, the camp owner, head counselor, chef and kitchen manager all look at each other, expecting someone else to take responsibility. In the meantime, no one is doing so. So, it is vital that someone be designated to supervise intake.” “Today, we have five active members. Rabbi Fishbane of AKO monitors our activities. We began by reaching out to camp directors with whom we had a personal connection and offering to check out their kitchens for free. We then sent letters to all camp directors, informing them of the availability of our service. The response was 100% positive. However, it was already past Pesach, and the camp directors were extremely busy preparing to open their facilities; scheduling inspections proved difficult. As a result, our f irst season was limited to half a dozen visits. Later we presented at The Association of Jewish Camp Operators (AJCO) Camp Expo & Conference in the Meadowlands. The project snowballed each subsequent year, with a lot of camps reaching out to us.” 16 “Our service is free not only ostensibly. Unlike those deals that offer a free item but add a shipping-and-handling fee or some hook to get you to pay for other items, we have no hidden agenda. Our only goal is to improve the kashrus of the hundreds of thousands of meals served each summer,” Rabbi Tendler states. “There is no hook to get the camp to sign a hashgachah contract with us. We do not even want to give hashgachos to the camps. We are only interested in reviewing the operation and offering suggestions on how to improve it from the standpoints of kashrus and shemiras Shabbos.” “Members of the committee invest their own time, money and energy to provide this service. There is absolutely no funding solicited,” Rabbi Kaufman adds. “At times, our own vaadim, who have a vested interest in improving the level of kashrus in Klal Yisrael, will cover the costs, but the rest of the expenses come out of our dedicated mashgichim’s pockets. In addition, they receive no prestige for what they do, as there is no gathering where they get publicity on stage.” Preparing a Plan The goal of the committee is not to offer certification but rather to ensure that each camp has a kashrus plan in place, including someone charged with overseeing that it is properly implemented. In the absence of such a plan, the June 18, 2025 “In many cases, we felt that no one was manning the ship... A teacher called me from a camp. She erroneously believed the camp was under our hashgachah.” Rabbi Moshe Kaufman, Kashrus Administrator, KVH Kashrus. While some camps may be resistant to hiring a mashgiach, Rabbi Kaufman suggests that often there are people on grounds who can take responsibility. “A staff member may have a spouse learning on grounds who can take achrayus for certain aspects. He might be able to check invoices to verify that what you are getting is what you asked for. In high-end restaurants, someone verifies that the restaurant received exactly what was ordered. In camps as well, everything must be checked before it is accepted for use.” As the committee’s work commenced, they developed a formalized online inspection form, which was designed to cover all areas of the kitchen. “Problems that pop up are quite surprising, Rabbi Fishbane relates. “In many cases, we felt that no one was manning the ship. As an example, a teacher called me from a camp where her school was holding a Shabbaton. She erroneously believed the camp was under our hashgachah. It was owned by a 22 Sivan 5785 17 Kashering a pizza oven at a camp. frum person, but she had been met at the kitchen by the gentile caretaker. He handed her the key to the kitchen and told her, ‘I can’t open the kitchen, so here’s the key. You must open up, but give it right back to me.’ He showed her around the kitchen. When she asked, ‘Who is the mashgiach?’ the answer she got was, ‘You are!’ “I called the camp director and asked, ‘What’s the plan?’ A system in which you tell the gentile that he can’t open the kitchen, but he has the keys is not a plan!” Rabbi Sholom Chaim Tendler detailing exactly what must be done each day,” Rabbi Tendler explained. “This includes lighting the pilot lights and the fires on the stoves and f iring up the ovens. We customize the list for each location.” Mix-ups and Math “This is the most widespread issue we come across,” Rabbi Kaufman chimes in. “Anecdotally, in many camps a non-Jewish caretaker has access to the kitchen. At some of these camps, even if they are set up well during the season, there is hefkeirus during the off season. Because of this issue, one camp kashers their entire kitchen before each season. But that’s an anomaly.” “One of the most important suggestions we make to camps is to have a checklist of the staff’s daily routines, “When we do certification inspections, we likewise have a checklist. Afterwards, there is an inspection report to record that each step was carried out. When I visited one sight, I forgot to download the inspection list. When I arrived, there was no internet service, so I went through it by heart. As I was leaving the camp, I realized that I had left out two things, and I had to return to check them out,” Rabbi Kaufman recalls. “This shows the importance of the lists and reports even for an experienced mashgiach and certainly for untrained kitchen help.” Properly marked kitchen equipment. “Another common problem we encounter is that the milchige and fleishige equipment are mixed up or not marked properly,” says Rabbi Fishbane. “Often the people responsible for storing the serving spoons and pitchers are teenagers, and sometimes they do not exercise the proper care.” “At one site, the milchige and fleishige preparation areas were in pretty good shape. But the only spot where they could place the milchige oven was on the fleishige side,” Rabbi Tendler recounts. “Of course, they were careful not to mix up the ovens. But this was inviting problems, as pans could be removed from the oven and placed on the fleishige counter.” “A common refrain is, ‘I control my kitchen at home very well. I know what I’m doing,’” Rabbi Fishbane 18 relates. “But at home, you are not preparing hundreds of meals. The problem is the math, not the intent. Often, frum owners and chefs consider it an affront that we are looking over their shoulders. We have to be sensitive to this, yet we must also convey the importance of the system.” “Another thing we often hear is, ‘We don’t make mistakes,’” Rabbi Kaufman puts in. “But I would compare a camp kitchen to a Pesach hotel. Would you say, ‘We have a frum chef, we don’t need mashgichim?’” At times, the chef or kitchen manager may be unaware of the implications of a particular habit of theirs. “At one site, we observed the chef placing a pan of macaroni and cheese in an electric buffet to keep it warm until serving it. The piece of equipment was a basin filled with water with an element to heat the water. The chef put a large hotel roaster pan of macaroni into it. I said, ‘I don’t see it marked milchig or fleishig.’ “The chef answered that they used the same one for both milchigs and fleishigs. He defended this practice with the halachic concept of nat bar nat, which basically relies on the absorption of taam (taste) being secondary without any b’ein (physical pieces of food). I countered that the Chavas Daas prohibits this during the cooking process, but even if you rely on the opinion of the matirim, it would only be permissible if there was no b’ein. I proceeded to fish out a piece of spiral rotini (macaroni) and cheese floating in the hot water. “I then asked what his setup on Shabbos was. He told me, ‘I guess they serve the food straight out of the oven without using the buffet.’ The gentile worker corrected him, saying, ‘No. We plug it in for them.’ The chef tried to claim that it was only chazarah (returning a cooked item to a heat source), but we pointed out that the gentile was heating the water in the basin, so it was amirah l’akum for a d’Oraysa. “We questioned the chef on whether, in the seven years of the camp’s existence, anyone had ever asked the camp Rav what they were and weren’t permitted to do. It seemed that the gentile worker knew more about the operation than the clueless chef. 22 Sivan 5785 “I would compare a camp kitchen to a Pesach hotel. Would you say, ‘We have a frum chef, we don’t need mashgichim?!’” June 18, 2025 19 On the way to inspect the kitchen at Camp Ma’ayan Midwest. Oversight and Sloppiness “I’d like to tell two stories, one of which involved an oversight and one of which involved sloppiness,” says Rabbi Kaufman. “We visited one camp, which was locked down tight and very well maintained. There were charts for every hafrashas challah that was performed, which was impressive for a site without a formal hashgachah. “The chef showed us the outdoor grills they used for cookouts and proudly declared, ‘I turn them on.’ He thought he was thereby avoiding any question of bishul akum. I asked, ‘Do the gentile workers call you when they run out of propane? It has to happen every now and then.’ He replied, ‘I never thought of that.’ A serious oversight! “I asked the chef, ‘Do the gentile workers call you when they run out of propane?’ He replied, ‘I never thought of that.’ A serious oversight!” “This is why in all kashrus organizations, there are multiple layers of supervision. There is the on-site mashgiach, the manager on top of him, and the Rabbinical coordinator and kashrus administrator; the many sets of eyes ensure that someone catches whatever was missed. “Then there is the case of sloppiness. We visited a site where the frum chef acted as mashgiach together with two bachurim. They knew all that was going on, and it was a good solid place. However, the chef told us, ‘As far as the canteen, I can’t take achrayus. It is run by two bachurim, and you won’t be happy.’” Rabbi Kaufman described what he found at that site. “There were two deep fryers located side by side, one for pizza rolls and one for chicken nuggets. Canteens nowadays are full-service fast food places,” he quips. “The bachurim were not interested in talking, telling us, ‘We’re on top of things.’ “When I looked at the keilim, some were marked and some were not. Many were tossed, mixed together, in a single bin under the table. ‘I know which is which,’ said one the bachurim in charge, although that seemed implausible. They prepared both milchigs and fleishigs on top of a chest freezer and told us they covered it with foil when doing one or the other. The two fryers were side by side with a 14-inch divider, which was covered in grease. Obviously, grease had been splattering over the top, which is a major problem. I told the Kitchen Hashgachah in Chassidishe Camps The kashrus of the kitchens in private camps is the responsibility of the individual owner. However, Chassidishe camps, generally owned and operated by the kehillah, are under the auspices of the Dayanim of the kehillah. “We have a boys camp and a girls camp,” says Rabbi Yisrael Mering, the director of the Vizhnitz summer camps. “The Dayanim of the kehillah are the ones who set the standard for the camps. Each of the two camps has its individual Dayan. In one camp the Dayan does the inspection of the kitchen, while in the other the Dayan oversees the kashrus through a mashgiach he appoints. “Knowing that whatever happens in the kitchen is under the supervision of the Dayanim allows the campers and staff to enjoy whatever is served with no doubts as to its kashrus. As the passuk says in Tehillim (22:27), ‘Yochlu anavim v’yisba’u.’” 22 Sivan 5785 bachur, ‘Your fryer baskets are identical and not marked. You cannot possibly know the difference.’ “The chef called the Rav of the camp, who was so embarrassed when he heard what was happening. To his credit, he planned to shut it down on the spot. We discussed the difficulty of kashering the fryers; libun would inevitably break them. Instead, the camp administration bought new ones. They planned to build a new shack to house either milchigs or fleishigs.” The mashgichim jointly decry the transformation of camp canteens to businesses. Some camps are outsourcing the concession so that a proprietor owns canteens in several camps with no hashgachah. “It’s like buying from a food truck without any hashgachah,” they agree. Success Story Yet there are success stories as well. “We went to a site that needed improvement, and the kitchen manager said it was too cumbersome to implement,” says Rabbi Kaufman. “Yet the owner invited us back before the next summer and showed us that he had expanded the kitchen to separate milchigs and fleishigs, and the kitchen manager was now engaged in improving the supervision. ‘We are committed,’ the owner told us. ‘I implemented every improvement you suggested.’ I checked it over and recommended two additional improvements. On the spot, the kitchen manager called down the handyman and electrician, who did the work before I left the camp!” “By and large, camps are receptive to listening and doing what they could do to improve their kashrus,” Rabbi Tendler says. “To date, we have visited nearly three dozen camps and hope to help others in the coming year.” “At AKO executive meetings, I use the AKO camp committee as an exemplar of a successful initiative and a model for the other projects we wish to launch,” Rabbi Fishbane says proudly. “Those include an initiative to upgrade the kashrus operation in yeshivos and shul kitchens.” In a future article, Hamodia will discuss those initiatives. Camps who would like to arrange inspection with the committee can contact camps@akokosher.org

Kashrus In The Clouds What’s really in that vape? Join us as we explore the surprising kashrus questions behind e-cigarettes — from flavorings and glycerin to halachic principles that meet modern technology. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane - Kashrus Administrator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council, and Executive Director of AKO clears up some of the fog behind this very important topic. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus . Presented by the Kashrus  Awareness project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, Kashrus  administrator of the CRC and the executive director of AKO. Thank you Rabbi Fishbane for joining us. Today we'd like to discuss a topic that many youngsters may be interested or surprised or dismayed that we're discussing. Parents, I'm sure, will be very excited about it, and that is e-cigarettes, electronic cigarettes, and the kashrus  questions related to e-cigarettes. And I would put out a disclaimer before we get into the kashrus  conversation as relates to e-cigarettes that, you know, obviously there are health concerns with smoking, whether it's tobacco, regular cigarettes, or electronic cigarettes. And by no means by having this conversation are we condoning using these cigarettes. I know that the Poiskim  in Lakewood put out a very pointed letter warning people about the dangers of smoking, al pi haTorah , you know, haGedolim  of previous generations, and that and they feel that the same concerns that apply to regular cigarettes apply to electronic cigarettes and things of that sort. So just as a disclaimer, we're not condoning its usage, but at the same time because they are quite prevalent, it's important that we discuss the kashrus  concerns that there may or may not be when it comes to electronic cigarettes. Anything you want to comment on that before we get into the topic? R’ Sholem Fishbane: No, I fully agree. It's completely osser and it's so interesting that so many people call anyway. I don't smoke myself or vape or whatever it is, and it's 100% correct and even talking about it is uncomfortable, but I've learned in the industry is that, you know, there's a we recently came went through Purim . So on Purim  there's a, the one of the, we all know the story of Purim  how the Yidden  were punished by from going to the seudas Achashveirosh . Mordechai said, don't go to the seudas Achashveirosh , and they didn't listen. But Chazal say once they went, you know who actually went with them? Mordechai haTzadik . Because he says if they're going, I might as well make sure that the yayin  that they drink is not yayin nesech , right? So he wanted to be, take away the michshol  of kashrus . So perhaps, you know, we, these types of things, they're doing it anyway, let me at least go through the kashrus  side of it with the understanding that it continues like you said earlier correctly that it's osser  to smoke. So I I've been doing some research on it only because so many people have been calling. And is it there's so, it's a, it's a really a shiur  by itself. There's, what is called achilah , right? The Rama says that it's osser  to be to'eim  something even if you don't swallow it completely. And the meforshim  explain as long as it goes into the goren , into the throat, that's what's called achilah . So therefore, the the metzius  is that this is, there's a regular cigarette is something called reicha . This is not the sugya  of reicha , which is a whole geshmake  sugya by itself. This is a sugya  called zeiah . And zeiah , anything that comes from zeiah  is considered like itself. It's the, it's the liquid coming off, that is connected. It's different than reicha , which is smoke. Okay? So therefore, what we have over here is the way e-cigarettes work is there's a liquid and there's a electronic piece in there that when you, when you suck on it, I guess, it it it converts the liquid into vape, to, and that goes to the back of the throat where it's called you get the hit, I'm told by the people that smoke, and that converts the vape, converts to liquid droplets. So that's shtiah  according to the vast majority of Poiskim . We have a legitimate case of drinking something, whatever's in that cartridge. I I did see a teshuvah  from Rabbi Weissmandl who felt that that's not called te'imah . Iyain sham  in his teshuvah  why he's, you know, but most Poiskim  say that's called te'imah . Okay? So now that we've established that that's te'imah  in the back. back of, you know, that's called to in the goyren , now we got to see what's in it. So there's really four or five things that go on in an e-cig. I've been in factories that make it. There's a factory in in in Florida owned by a frum yid  and I got a very good understanding by studying what they do over there. There's the flavor, which is a smaller amount. There's a propylene glycol, which is about 30%. Uh, there's nicotine, and uh then there's the glycerin. So the flavors are the flavors. For for the sake of our purposes, we're not really worried about the the kashrus  of the flavors making it a point that you can't eat it because of flavor. It's not like soda where you're going to, it's it's different, okay? So let's put the flavors aside, we're not so worried about those. Propylene glycol at a high percentage is actually something that's called davar mar . It's a pogum . It's about 20%, 30%, whatever it is. Uh, the nicotine itself, interesting, that itself is bitter. It's it's not good. It's, uh, so maybe, oh, there's nothing to worry about. It's it's uh einah royah l'achila , so let's forget, you know, nice meeting, Reb Yitzchok, let's let's go on, you know. So the the the question in halacha  is, a word called achshevei . Achshevei  means if you have something that you wouldn't normally eat because it's pogum , it's ich , right? And you drink it or eat it anyway, you are machshiv  it. So that's the question in e-cigs of this thing called achshevei . But the main concern in an e-cig is the glycerin. That's the main concern, because glycerin could be made from two things, from a plant or from a cow, okay? A treif , I mean a not a kosher cow. Uh, uh it could be made from fat. It's a fat. What is glycerin? It's a sweet, fatty syrup. Okay? And they put it in everything to make it, right? They put it in medicines, they'll put it in cookies, they'll put it in glycerin is huge. And and if you understand that, so therefore, we're talking about, let's just go back for a minute. We're talking about achila , something that you put in your mouth because you want it, and it's a safek issur d'oraisa . It might come from a behema  that wasn't shechted , which is no different than eating a hamburger, right? So now we have a real shailah . What do you do by a safek issur d'oraisa ? Usually, you're machmir . So I went through many, many ways of understanding how they make it and what it is. I came up with actually um, uh 14 different ways of of the shailah  of how they can make an e-cig, okay? Uh, so the first thing I understood is actually there's a difference between the throwaway e-cig and the cartridge. A throwaway has a higher percentage of propylene glycol. So the glycerin level is a little lower. Maybe you don't even have majority, okay? The second is, um if there's nicotine. We talked about the nicotine being pogum . The third is that sometimes on the label say vegetable glycerin. If it says vegetable glycerin, can you trust it? That's a sugya  by itself related in in other parts of kashrus . The fact that it says something on there, do companies actually change the label every time something else comes in? Not so simple, okay? Uh, then, then the big thing and here is the the main sugya , where was it made? Was it made in the United States or was it made overseas? Why is that such a big difference? Because the the majority, the vast, vast, vast majority of glycerin in the United States today is indeed vegetable glycerin. And therefore in halacha  it's called kol d'parish m'ruba parish . You go basar rov . Overseas, especially in Brazil, maybe in China, these other countries, forget it. But the stuff made here, and I studied the glycerin market very carefully, uh and uh and therefore it is, um therefore you if it says made in America, you maybe you can go basar rov  that it's that it's vegetable glycerin. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I'm curious, is there a price difference between animal glycerin and vegetable glycerin that would make it more likely that they'd use one over the other? R’ Sholem Fishbane: So great question and it really depends on the country. So in America today, the vegetable glycerin is lower than animal glycerin. For some reason the pet industry still uses animal glycerin, has to do with a quirk in the government laws, and some of the medicine industry, uh not necessarily in America, maybe in Canada, also has to do with the way uh the works of government laws. But for the purposes of what we're talking about, it's much easier and cheaper to buy your vegetable glycerin. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So is that is that enough halachically to rely on the fact that that uh it's coming from vegetable? R’ Sholem Fishbane: So Therefore, that that's where it comes down to. What your question is exactly the the bottom line. So I called around the poiskim  to find out. As I said, Rabbi Weissmandl wrote a whole chuva  based on Kol DaParash , it's roiv , he says it's mutar  therefore.I spoke to Rabbi First, the dayan  of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois. I spoke to our rosh beis din , Rabbi Reese from the CRC beis din . They said, no, no, no. There is you're talking safeik d'oraisa , you're talking achshevei . All because if you take each shailah  by itself, it's not so simple, and they said, assur .I spoke to Rav Shlomo Miller. I spoke to Rav Moshe Heinemann, shlita . And they, they they agreed with the fact that it's considered blia , it's considered achila , it's considered zeia , zeia , but they also agreed that you go by roiv . So if indeed, they said if indeed this metzius  is that glycerin today in the United States is roiv  vegetable, what you want to be soimech on? I said al pi halacha , again. Not condoning smoking. Right. But that they. So, so therefore that's what we came out with. But you know, if you and but it's interesting, you know, I mentioned before we had 14 things. So like the easiest way to to be meikel so to say, is if it's a throwaway, it's vegetable says on the label and it has nicotine and it's made in the United States. And the opposite would be the hardest way.But at now there are some that actually have a hechsher . Oh, there are. There are, yeah. There's one that is given a hechsher by a similar sounding kosher agency to us, and we get angry calls by the mothers, how dare you give a hechsher  on something like this? We can't get a word in edgewise because they're so mad. You know, two minutes into the rant, we'll say, it's not us. Not us. Not us. That happens actually.But I'll tell you the bottom line is because you know, the truth is, if you just ask, I gave you the different shittos , but I can tell you something that I have heard many times from Rav Yisroel Belsky, zichrono l'vracha , and and Rav Schwartz, zichrono l'vracha , and others that are, you know, poiskim  in kashrus , they say, when you give a hechsher  as a as a as a as an agency, when you are in charge of giving out information, whether you're a hechsher  or like we're doing here today. You know, when you're an authority to talk tell people, you you have to go with what's called shailah -free. You tell the Klal Yisroel  that this is, you don't go with bedieved . And whether it could be a Starbucks question, like we've talked about in the past, it could be other types of shailos , shailah -free. E-cigs is not shailah -free. We're talking about safeika d'oraisa. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So it's an interesting thing. I just, sorry to interrupt, but it is interesting that we've seen letters coming out about e-cigarettes in regards to the health issue, but you would think that based on our conversation, you would think that someone would have put out a letter, you know, lehavi yedu'a , you know, the public should know that e-cigarettes is really not a simple matter when it comes to kashrus . R’ Sholem Fishbane: So actually, it's a great point and I thank you for bringing that up. I want to quote a letter from Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita . And I'll say it in in Hebrew, is that okay? Yeah. He says, oideis sigaria electronia, hineni maskim l'divrei  someone who asked me the question. Shekeivan sheyesh b'soicha tamsis sheyesh bahem ta'am tov she'nisraf v'nehpach l'adim v'nichnasim l'toch hapeh , it turns into steam into your mouth. U'margish ta'am ha'adim b'piv . Keivan she'zeia dino k'mamash, havei k'to'eim b'piv es guf ha'chomer . Ul'chein tzrichim l'hishtamesh rak b'sigaria sheyesh alav hechsher . Very, very clear. Like there's no no ambiguity with that. So there are others and others in Eretz Yisroel , Rav Moshe Shaul Klein, Rav Wosner, others have also come out to say that it needs a hechsher . And they didn't even talk about the health part of it. Health part, it was straight up, straight up kashrus . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: As always, we've learned so much from this conversation, then we we look forward to hearing more if things do develop. And as, you know, like you always say, things are always changing, people should stay up to date if the way they produce it is different or maybe even better yet. Obviously, people shouldn't smoke if they don't have to, but if people are, perhaps someone would take the initiative of making sure that the majority of the devices that are being used are under a reputable hashgacha . That would also be a a tremendous service. R’ Sholem Fishbane: Not under CRC Kosher. No, no, no, we're getting enough phone calls. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No, no, no. R’ Sholem Fishbane: You know, it's so interesting why we're getting so many phone calls, because everything else is easy. We put it on our website. Right. You know, it's kosher , it's not kosher . Because we hold you shouldn't be smoking, we don't put it on. So people are calling. Uh-huh. It's like the hashgachas that we don't necessarily recommend, it's not on our recommended list. Right. You know, anyway, but that's a… R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So it's so it it makes it complicated. Makes it complicated. Makes it a complicated matter. But thank you again, thank you for joining us.

Is it possible that all milk isn't kosher? This week we revisit one of the most controversial questions of its time. Rabbi Yosef Landa - Rabbinic Coordinator at cRc Kosher walks us through all the details of this fascinating question. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project and the CRC, the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am honored to be joined by Rabbi Yosef Landa, Rabbinic Coordinator at the CRC. How are you Rabbi Landa? R’ Yosef Landa: Okay, Baruch Hashem , how are you? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Thank you for being here. You're a mashgiach  with the CRC, the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Correct? And one of your expertises is the area of dairy, correct? Correct. What does that generally involve before we get into our topic today? R’ Yosef Landa: Well, dairy as you can imagine, it's milk, obviously, cheese, yogurt, ice cream, the main staple dairy products. And I do some other smattering of some other types of companies also, but mainly those type of products. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now, I recall years ago, I don't know if this topic has arisen of late, but I remember years ago when there was a big tumult about the stomachs of cows, the abomasum, that they were either punctured, there were holes in the abomasum. For the lay person, give us a little overview about what the issue was then, how the issue was resolved if it was, and whether that's a concern still today. R’ Yosef Landa: Right. Okay, yes. So about approximately 30 years ago, I forget exactly when as time goes on, it was discovered that it was not very common, but not rare, a condition that the cows developed, one of their stomachs became displaced from its normal place. It's usually associated with soon after a cow gives birth when it has a cavity, it has an extra space that wasn't there before, and the stomach falls out of place. It can be on the left side or the right side. It was called LDA and RDA, left displaced abomasum and right displaced abomasum. One is more dangerous than the other, but it needs to be corrected. And it was discovered that the standard it seemed or at least one of the ways of correcting this was to puncture, puncture the abomasum, they call it a keiva , in the lashon of of Shulchan Aruch  and the Gemara . And which is a treifa , which is a treifa . If you puncture, you puncture this organ, it's a treifa . So this created a shaila for all the dairy products in the United States. I mean, because if certainly got cholov stam  where there's no presence of the hashgacha  on the farm, we don't know anything really what's going on over there. We just take the milk as as being kosher inherently, based as a heter  of cholov stam . But even with cholov Yisroel , when the when we have mashgiachs  there on the farm, but same issue, same issue. You got they weren't looking or tracking and finding out which cows had this procedure and which didn't. And these cows gave milk into the general collection of milk that the farm produced. And it was when they're making a cholov Yisroel product, you carefully isolate that milk and send it in a tanker to a different facility that actually makes the whatever dairy product, but you got the same problem. Got the same problem. So this problem came up approximately 30 years ago or so. So at the time, so cholov stam , I'm sorry, cholov Yisroel , any hashgacha  on cholov Yisroel , what they moved to do is to isolate those cows. In other words, when the mashgiach  were sent to a farm to do hashgacha  on cholov Yisroel , they would segregate those cows. They would segregate those cows out and they would not use they would not use the milk from those cows. I'm not sure how soon after the tumult arose, but pretty soon after that, that's what cholov Yisroel decided to do. And that's been implemented and it still continues to this day. It's been implemented. Any cholov Yisroel   hashgacha  in the United States does not take milk from these cows. They they're segregated out. It's a standing system. When you go to any farm to when you want to set up cholov Yisroel , that's one of the things that you got to take care of. You got to have a system of tracking and the mashgiach has to, usually there's a computer system of cows have tags in their ears. When any sophisticated farm, and most are today, there was a lot of consolidation of farms, smaller farms all had to consolidate. There was a lot of pressure in the dairy industry, not too many years ago. So they consolidated and most farms have this type of system where a cow when it gets up to be milked, they have the tag in the ear electronically read. And they have a whole system of tracking the health of all the cows and they and they know which which cows have undergone which procedures and we have a system of of removing these cows. from from being used when when when we use chalav yisrael . So that that that that's what was done and that's that continues till this day. And that's a maalah . That's a maalah  that you avoid this entire shayla with chalav  when you take chalav yisrael . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And just to clarify, I know this is a very elementary thing what I'm going to say, but if someone out there watching this doesn't understand, the reason why milk or cheese that comes from such an animal is because once the animal is a treifa , so anything that comes from a treifa  is considered treif  as well. I know that's, you know, R’ Yosef Landa: Correct. If the animal is treif  then the milk is treif . That's d'raisa m'd'Oraisa . The animal has a is a treif , this is a treif d'raisa . I mean, so the milk is is is assur b'achila m'd'Oraisa . Now, however, it's very important to note, the shayla however is only d'rabanan . The shayla  itself is not a d'oraisa shayla because of the rule that min b'mino batel b'rov . As we got treif milk is certainly not majority of the cows. No farm had a majority of the cows. The highest was, you know, at the time, you know, they were looking into it maybe 5% of the cows, tops. Something like that. So it's not batel b'shishim , but m'd'raisa , bitul b'rov  is enough min b'mino  since you can't taste the difference between treif  milk and not treif  milk. So it's it's min b'mino batel b'rov , but m'd'rabanan  it's not batel . D'rabanan is d'rabanan . So so it was a shayla d'rabanan . So that's, you know, that's, you know, less of a less of a serious shayla , so maybe maybe there's room here and there to be meikel , but but but it was it was a problem. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right, I also wanted to point out that for those who are makpid  on chalav yisrael , besides for the chalav yisrael - chalav stam  issue, this would be another reason, another benefit so to speak, of drinking chalav yisrael , that chalav yisrael obviates any concern of having these abomasum issues. Right. R’ Yosef Landa: Right. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Any other thoughts on this particular topic? R’ Yosef Landa: So, so yeah, so that's what chalav yisrael did. So but even CRC, most of our products that we certify, we have, you know, a little bit of chalav yisrael , most of the products we certify are chalav stam  as well as the the major national hashgachas  that are very familiar with. Most of them are are chalav stam . So that did not take care of the issue of chalav stam . Now the truth is, for chalav yisrael  it was worse. The shayla  was worse. On chalav yisrael  farms? Yes, yes. The reason why the shayla  was worse is because we know what's going on. There's a presence on the farm and we could learn, we could find out, the mashgiach  could see, if he's if he's watching and looking at the cows, you can see if you're a cow that had a recent surgery, you can see an incision. You know, a healing incision on on on the side of the cow. So you can see it. You could see it. If you're looking for it, you could see it. You know, you're not paying attention, you're not going to see it. That mean it heals kind of quick and you know, you're not going to after a while, you're not going to see it, but you could see it. So you can know what's going on, or you could talk to the people, they have a computer system, they can find out. So in a way the shayla was worse. They really had to, you know, because they could be m'varer so to speak what which R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: On the non-chalav yisrael  farms, they were not tracking which cows had undergone this procedure? R’ Yosef Landa: No, the farm itself is tracking, but you the consumer and even us the hashgacha , we when it comes to non-chalav yisrael , we have no connection whatsoever to the to the to the farm at all. In other words, we certify a dairy processing facility that has pasteurizers and homogenizers and fillers and, you know, and packaging and everything. That's where the hashgacha  starts. We, you know, make sure that that everything is because it's it's heated equipment, you got to make sure that there's vitamins, whatever, you got, you know, the stuff to to make sure it's kosher when it comes to the dairy processing facility, but we didn't have any connection to the farm. We can have, you can have a a milk manufacturing facility that gets milk from 100 different farms. Okay, it's probably less now. That was I remember asking someone once, someone's company, how many how many farms they get from? They said about 100 around the area over here. That was years ago. Now there was a consolidation, so so it's probably less than that now. But still, they get from quite a few farms and there is no presence of the hashgacha  whatsoever on the farm. So we don't know anything. We don't know anything. So over here it was good. We didn't know anything. We didn't so we don't know, so you know, I'll explain in a minute, that's that was a maalah . But if you if you're present at the farm, it was worse. So so so so we made it better. It was worse, we made it better that we don't don't don't take any milk from these cows. The question is, so what's what what was the heter ? So so all the hashgachas  all decided that we can they continue doing what they're doing. Right. You know, it was it was a dochek , you know, but but that's, you know, we wanted to have a good heter . We wanted to make a heter  that makes sense. So at that time, there were different, they looked into what exactly the procedure was. You know, without, you know, going into all the details, but so they they they thought they found they saw that it was done in a way that it was not treifa . The incision maybe, the the puncture maybe wasn't done straight through. There were other methods to to that they can accomplish the same thing and perhaps that, you know, it wasn't treif . Also some wanted to say a chiddush  that, you know, because we see that these cows don't don't die within 12 months. Right, right? That's what's supposed to happen to to a treif  cow. So, you know, you could say a chiddush  that that when it's done in this obviously when it's done in this setting, in this manner, it doesn't seem to be treif . But that's a but that's that's a chiddush . That's a very big chiddush . reluctant to rely on that. So but initially it seemed that they they did rely on on on on on, you know, on the svara  that it doesn't actually the way it's done doesn't actually make it treif . But then it was revisited a few years later because, you know, we saw that, you know, the reports coming that that that plenty of places it's done done in a way that's a classic treifa . I mean, if you know, without any chiddushim , it's it's a treifa . So so, so it was revisited and and so there was there was a conference call and so Rabbi Yisroel Belsky zatzal  at that time said, and this is a svara  that that, you know, that was that was said originally, but that le'maiseh  you have a rov . Le'maiseh in all in all in all cows, classically there's 10% treif , right? I mean we we find more today because we're machmir . But there are cows that are treif . Right? The difference is we don't know, nobody knows. Since inside the lungs you can't, it's not checked, you don't know. So what what so why but somebody has a cow in his backyard, it's possible it's treif . He's allowed to he's allowed to drink their milk, right? Because you go basar rov . The Torah says you're allowed to go you're allowed to go basar rov . So he said, this is the same thing over here. We we don't we don't know, we don't have a presence, we have no presence at the farms. We don't know, some there are methods that they do that that don't that don't make it treif . So, it's the same rov . You got the you got the same rov . And and that's what you could be somech  on. You know, the the the chisaron is that is there somebody that knows? There is, the farmers farmers do know. But it's it's extreme it's to set this up and to make this change that if if they understand that they're not going to gain anything by this, they only have to lose, they're not going to give us this information. Why should they why in the world should they change their whole system and say, Rabbi, if we don't tell you anything, you you know, we're going to have to tell them the truth that it's accepted. So, so it's it's really not possible to find out. It's really not possible to find out. The only way to do it was to to say, listen, okay, we're not going to give you a hechsher  unless you do this. So for that, there is Cholov Yisroel . Right. So but al pi din , al pi din , we have the same rov  that we don't know, and and any cow any cow out there could be treif , but the halacha  is that it's you go basar rov  and it's accepted. And even though once you mix all the milk together, there's a high probability that there's going to be even even at the time, even at the time, there's you know, because I'm the situation the situation got better because the numbers improved. The numbers of the cows the surgeries R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What different today than than from 30 years ago? What is different? What is different today than 30 years ago? R’ Yosef Landa: Right. So it was what's different today is somebody who wrote a sefer , his name is R’ Manis Blumenrucht, his sefer is called Cholov Treifa . And he reanalyzed the whole thing. He did a tremendous amount of polling to many different farms. And he found, and we've I found that in my experience as well, at the CRC, we've heard that the the numbers of the amount of treifas  have gone down. Years ago, the first farm I I had to had to work with, you know, working for the CRC, the numbers was like 5%, approximately 5%. I've had experience with approximately, I'd say 20 farms maybe. In the past 10 years, k'mat , they they don't have any. They don't have any. They have one, they have none. They they get rid of them. I I they've and I've read some place that the veterinarians also say that they don't have they don't have as many. This used to get this used to be a more common procedure, less common procedure. I don't know the reasons. I don't I'm sure there are, you know, reasons for why, maybe they got they got better at controlling it. In different parts of the country also originally there were different numbers. So, you know, possibly they they just got had better systems at of of maybe of the feed or of controlling this, and it's it's it's at the farms it seems it's it seems it seems to be a lot better. So, so then it's it's there's a chance now very, you know, very possible chance now that there's bittel or at least it's battel b'shishim  or at least it's a safek . At least you're getting milk, it's a safek , you know, and it's a safek d'rabbanan . Now, he wants to argue in the sefer  after going through 18 chapters of why he really thinks it's treif , the procedure is treif , but and then he, you know, he talks about how the the polling that he did and the information that he found out, it seems to be that that that the situation is improved, the numbers are much better, and it's at least you can make a good argument that it's at least a safek  and it's a safek d'rabbanan lekula . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Very interesting. Rabbi Landa, thank you.

Many questions are sent in to us on various kashrus issues. This week we sit down with Rav Shmuel Fuerst Dayan of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois so he can answer some of the questions. This week's Q&A focuses on common kitchen mishaps and other kashrus in the kitchen questions R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council . Today I am privileged to be joined by Rav Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois . Thank you Rabbi Fuerst  for joining us once again. Appreciate it. R’ Shmuel Fuerst: My pleasure. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Today we'd like to do something a little different as opposed to speaking about a specific topic. We'd like to go through some shailos  that have come in to Let's Talk Kashrus  and present them to the Rav  if that's okay. R’ Shmuel Fuerst: No problem. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So the first question that we received is as follows, and I'll read the questions as they came in and then allow the Rav  to respond. 1) If a pot became treif  through bishul akum , does one need to wait 24 hours before kashering it? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: The din  is the Shach speaks near the end of Siman Kuf Yud Gimel , that by bishul akum , it's batel b'rov . Not like usually you need shishim , it's batel b'rov . So therefore, the Darkei Teshuvah  quotes over there, brings down kama poskim  that hold that since it's batel b'rov , then you don't have to wait meis l'eis . You don't have to wait meis l'eis because whenever you kasher water it's always batel b'rov . So therefore you don't have to wait, you don't have to wait meis l'eis  before you kasher as you can kasher immediately after it became treif , you can do it right away, kashering right away. And that's the consensus of kama poskim . That by bishul akum , since the whole is issur d'rabbanan , so it's batel b'rov , and the Shach  is in the end of Kuf Yud Gimel , but there's also another Shach  in the end of Kuf Yud Beis , it says the same thing also. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay. 2) If someone inherited treif  pots that were never toiveled , does one need to kasher them before toiveling them? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: Pots that were, came treif  and they were never toiveled , there's a machlokes poskim , are you allowed to first toivel  and then kasher it, or you have to kasher first. The consensus, there's a Dagul Mervavah , there's a whole machlokes  in the achronim . L'maaseh l'dina , we pasken that you have to first kasher it, and then you have to toivel  it. If you did it the other way around, that's a big machlokes poskim . And we pasken like the Shach , you should do it again without a bracha . You should toivel  again, you should toivel  again without a bracha after, after kashering, right. If you first toivel  before you kashered, the second time around, that's how we pasken , that's what the Shach holds, not everyone holds like that, but l'maaseh l'dina , rov poskim seem to hold like that. That's how we pasken l'dina. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger:   Okay, this is a common question. 3) A milchig  frying pan was put into a fleishig dishwasher and it went through the cycle. So two questions, what's the halacha of the milchig  pan? And what's the with the fleishig  dishes that may have been in the dishwasher at the same time? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: First we'll talk about the milchig pan. The milchig  pan, since all the dishes, all the pots and pans that were in there, and silverware that were in the dishwasher are fleishig , and by mistake someone put in a milchig  pan and ran it through a cycle, the din  is you have to kasher it. This, the milchig  pan. But the rest of the dishes, you do not have to kasher. Because there's usually shishim k'neged , and plus, you use soap, the davar hapogem , which is davar hapogem , and so on. So regarding the fleishig  dishes, we're meikel . But regarding the milchig  pan, that we, since it's not shishim k'neged , so we, even though it's ain ben yomo , we tell them to kasher the frying pan. And a frying pan most of the time is kasherable. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Got it. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us

Supply Chain Rifts What happens when supply chains get disrupted? How about when ingredients need to be replaced due to skyrocketing costs? What about when certain items are banned by the government? These and other questions addressed by Rabbi Moshe Machuca - Rabbinic Field Representative for the OU, in this week's episode. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project in conjunction with Torah Anytime. Today I am honored to be joined by Rabbi Moshe Machuca, rabbinic coordinator and rabbinic field representative with the OU in Southeast Asia. Thank you Rabbi Machuca for being here once again. R’ Moshe Machuca: Thank you for having me. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So last time we spoke, we spoke about your fascinating entry into the field of kashrus  and traveling and all the challenges that accompany that experience. Today I'd like to hear from you briefly about innovations and updates in kashrus . You're there on the ground, you go from company to company. I hear this all the time from Rabbonim Mashgichim , from Mashgichim , from Rabbonim Machshirim , that the field of kashrus  as much as any field is constantly changing. Things are always being updated, there are new innovations. So what could you tell us from your experience in the field? You travel overseas, you go to many different countries. What has changed and what updates could you give us from on the ground? R’ Moshe Machuca: Basically, things that started changing dramatically after COVID or during COVID. All of the supply chain got disrupted. Nobody could travel, and then freight when, like for example, from Asia to the United States, a freight was for between 3,800 to 5/6,000 dollars, it went all the way to 32,000. And that necessity creates innovation. So everybody started trying to find local sources and and scouring and trying to develop other ways, which is, which has become an an enormous headache for kashrus professionals. Nowadays you have people that had, for example, in the dairy business, New Zealand supplies most of the powder milk to most of the countries and some American companies too, but because of that, then they started looking into the local governments, and then we had to spend an unbelievable amount of time trying to research if we could even accept those type of milks and to monitor that whatever we say is on the Schedule A was there. So we had to become a... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Well just for for our viewers, what does Schedule A mean in kashrus  terms? R’ Moshe Machuca: The Schedule A is the list of ingredients that are that have been approved and that by the contractual agreement between the kashrus  agency and the company, they are not allowed to change without prior authorization from the kashrus  agency. And the Schedule B is a list of products. So once they that start happening, it start happening with milk, it start happening with glycerin. I think you touched glycerin briefly with Rabbi Juravel. Glycerin is becoming a major problem because now you have these trend that of use cooking oil. So you have countries like Asia where the main countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, where most of the countries in Asia where the main dish is not beef or poultry, but seafood. But when I say seafood, it's not fish, it's octopus and shrimps and krills and and anguilas and horseshoe crabs and you name it. Fried, steamed, barbecued, in whichever way you want. So they go, they start scouring all these oils from all the restaurants and then in that in that used cooking oil, there's still a mashehu of things that can be used. So they goes, they take it in, they put it into a very powerful piece of equipment that is called a a cracker and it breaks down that cooked oil and then you can recover some propylene glycol and you can get some glycerin. But that glycerin is treif . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Animal derived? R’ Moshe Machuca: Yeah, animal derived and treif derived, because they eat whales, they eat swordfish, they eat sharks, they eat all that stuff. So all that fat ends up being collected and now reprocessed. And the problem is, is that once you have the glycerin and you put it on the microscope, you have no way of saying this glycerin came from here or that glycerin came from here. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Really? R’ Moshe Machuca: No. Glycerin is glycerin, and that's what it is. So, and everybody start becoming more innovative. Like for example, right now, there is a situation where cocoa, there was a being a drought or the cocoa, either for drought or because of excessive rain, the production, the yield, uh... is reduced, so now most of the cocoa butter, which is what is used to make white chocolate, now you have to use a cocoa butter substitutes because the price of cocoa butter is too expensive. And cocoa powder, now there are companies experimenting with carobs. Carobs have a cocoa-like taste profile. So now they're they started with a 5% injection. I tried it because they gave me we had to approve the carobs for for the R&Ds. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What's the kashrus  concerns would there be with the carob? R’ Moshe Machuca: Well, there's no kashrus concern per se, but we were very worried because you're putting in a new element. So the emulsifiers that you keep to that you use to keep everything together, they might change and because they might not work. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Got it. R’ Moshe Machuca: So that we were very worried about that. And then once they started doing R&Ds and the things that were working worked, so the taste if you're a chocolate connoisseur, you you're gonna R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You'll pick up on it? R’ Moshe Machuca: you'll pick up on it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Very interesting. So to clarify, so you weren't so concerned about the carob itself, but about the emulsifier being used if it's not effective anymore now that you're introducing a new element into the product, they may change it. Yes. So you have to be on top of that. R’ Moshe Machuca: Yeah, we have to be on top of it. And thank G-d, the emulsifiers that were being used, it is they worked. They held everything together, but we were worried about that. That's interesting. Carob is just a fruit, you just dry it and grind it and use it 5% into a chocolate compound. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Would you say now some years later after COVID that things have calmed down or is it still that freight and shipping is so much more expensive than it was pre-COVID and and that's affecting the- R’ Moshe Machuca: It has come down but not to pre-COVID levels. Not to pre-COVID levels. No, no, no, no, no, no. No. That those days are gone. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So are people still looking for more domestic options as opposed to international? R’ Moshe Machuca: Yes, everybody yes, because and now you have a panic, sort of a panic with tariffs and and the people don't want to don't want to pay more. So they start doing a lot of things. He said right now, I think here there's a situation where we're seeing again, tallow glycerin that we haven't had in a in a while. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Tallow glycerin, that's what it's called? And that's made from? R’ Moshe Machuca: From cow. Tallow is a is cow fat. Lard is pig fat. But but again, you have a fat, you can get glycerin. So so and now so you have an exodus of people getting out of China to places more less, let's say confrontational with the United States with the current situation in the United States. So they have more stability. But at the same time now, we have a we have a new director of the health department that is RFK? RFK? Yeah. that is banning Certain, right? He's banning certain items. So so now, for example, I am in the OU with the committee that is looking into new ingredients. Blue is going to be gone the next the next Right, R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: the colorings that he wants to ban because they're not healthy, right? R’ Moshe Machuca: Yeah. So color blue now is going to be substitute the suitable substitutes are a blue flower, I think it's called Gardenia, if I remember. I don't quote me on that, but I think that's what it is, that is very abundant in Indonesia. So they had to boil it, evaporate, and then spray dry and make it into a usable color. Or there is a microbe that is like a it's an unicell not microbe, I would say it fungi because it's it's like a spirulina. You know what you know what that is? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No, I don't know what that is. R’ Moshe Machuca: Spirulina is a single cell algae. Some people call it algae, but correctly it should be a fungi. So, so they they get that, they grow it and they're they made these little tiny green pills that are supposed to be very healthy and very beneficial for you. So there is a one like that that it is blue, but it is found, like have you seen those pictures in in Old Faithful in in Yellowstone that when you see the hot springs, you see like a blue R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah, the coloring, yeah. R’ Moshe Machuca: So that color is produced by that little unicell entity, and so now there's a French company that it is going to be doing that. So the one that is going to become a big problem is are the reds, because as you know, there's no more beautiful red than carmine. Right, no more carmine. Yeah, and carmine, no, I don't know if that one is banned because what they're banning are chemical. But the red 40 and some other type of red, so but the most beautiful red is carmine that it is not kosher. So now we're going to have to be really on top of colorings, and I already have four of my companies that use colors. They say that, what are you guys doing with colors? You need to let me know immediately once you decide where can we buy? because I know it is a year and a half away, but a year and a half away is a nap away. Right. Yeah, it's so, so there are a lot of things that are that are changing and that are becoming challenges and that that all the kashrus  organizations have to dedicate a lot of manpower and resources to keep up. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah, and I know that there's a lot of collaboration between kashrus  agencies, especially under the umbrella of AKO. Yes. Yes, to bring to bring together all the information. Let's say someone like you, you have firsthand information in Southeast Asia and someone else has information in a different region and it's really a kiddush shem shomayim  how people bring it together for the benefit of Klal Yisrael  to be on the cutting edge of kashrus . R’ Moshe Machuca: The AKO organization is a Godsend to the, to the world because it’s the entity by which everybody gets sort of on the same page. Right, right. It's really wonderful. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Rabbi Machuca, thank you for being here. Thank you for providing these few updates. I'm sure there's more, but im yirtzeh Hashem  we'll be able to speak to you again in the future. R’ Moshe Machuca: Okay, thank you.