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Today's interview focuses on a problem that many people face when kashering for Pesach. New-age technology = new-age problems. How do you kasher glass stovetops? Can they be kashered at all? What about induction stovetops? Let's hear what Rabbi Dovid Cohen - Administrative Rabbinical Coordinator at the cRc has to say on this timely topic.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus presented by the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Dovid Cohen, administrative rabbinical coordinator at the cRC, the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Rabbi Cohen, how are you? R’ Dovid Cohen: Amazing. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's great to have you back. It's been a little while since we did an episode together. Today we'd like to discuss a very fascinating but very practical topic that's important to many people, especially as we approach Pesach  and that is glass stovetops. So tell us the halachic  status of glass stovetops as it relates to kashering  them. Can that be kashered  and if yes how? R’ Dovid Cohen: Right so that's a really good question because we're Ashkenazim  and Ashkenazim  don't kasher  glass. We know we don't kasher  glass. So your first look at it you say no this is impossible I can't possibly kasher  this material. So in order to answer that question we have to back up a drop. Okay why don't we kasher glass? Sephardim  consider glass doesn't absorb at all. So it's a chumra . The Rama  says it's a chumra that like some shitas  that it's a little bit like cheres . A little bit we treat it like a kli cheres  something made of ceramic or porcelain that we can't kasher  that the Torah says you can't kasher so glass is a little bit like that because it's made in a similar way. Okay the way they manufacture it is similar. So since it's a chumra  the Rama  says some place else whenever we're kashering  things as with libbun  as a chumra we can do a lighter kind of libbun . We call it libbun kal . You get away with not as strong of a libbun  as you would really require if it was cheres . If it was cheres  you have to put it into its burning super hot you know a thousand degrees. But for this you can get away with a little since it's only a chumra to treat it like that you get away with a lesser temperature. Okay now that lesser temperature is he describes it as kash nisraf  the amount of heat that would cause a piece of straw to burn on the other side. It's so hot but it's not as hot as libbun.   libbun  I said thousand it's probably 850 degrees but you don't have to have that hot but you still have to have like about 450 500 degrees really hot that it could burn a piece of straw on the other side. So when we as Ashkenazim  are used to saying we don't kasher glass that means we don't kasher  glass with hag'ala  with hot water. If we do libbun kal  if we heat it up with enough temperature to make it kash nisraf  to make it that hot that we can kasher like that. So that's our goal. We want to kasher  it by making it as hot as kash nisraf . We're not we can't do hag'ala  you can't pour boiling water on it like on I don't know your stone counter but you can do it by making it kash nisraf . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay we know there's a principle of k'bolo kach polto . So how does that apply to glass where we're you know how does that determine what type of kashering  you could do for a glass? R’ Dovid Cohen: Okay so k'bolo kach polto  is used for two purposes. It's to decide which type of kashering  it needs does it need libbun  or hag'ala  like that type and within those what the level of it. Let's say if I only poured something chometz  onto my counter I can kasher  it by pouring something onto it. So within the levels I can choose that. But what when I'm in the when I require libbun  like on a glass I need libbun  you don't get to choose what temperature it is. You can't say as I'll do a little higher or lower based on how hot the food was when it goes in. That doesn't work. In hag'ala  it does. In hag'ala  if it was only 160 degrees I could kasher  with 160 degrees but in libbun  kind of things and even libbun kal  it doesn't work like that. So whatever the temperature was that's the temperature. Okay so what we're our goal here is to get libbun kal  we want to get it heated up. So you say I know how to get it heated up it's easy it's got electric coils underneath it so you turn it on it's gonna get nice and hot. Okay so that brings us to another complication and that's because there's another din  which is when we kasher  something and we make it hot let's say with in this case with heat with fire the fire has to be or the water has to be on the side where the food was not on the side where the fire was. So in this case where was the chometz  or the treif  that's on my glass counter? That was on the top part of it. Well where's the coil that I have? The coil that I have is underneath. The coil is underneath so usually let's say when you think about kashering  your counter by pouring boiling water onto it the chometz would have been on the counter and the water is going to be on the top of the counter so you're doing it the right way. Here the fire is underneath and the food was on the top. Okay so that's not the way to kasher . You can't kasher by putting heat on the wrong side. So some people argue back and they say no but for libbun it's different. Maybe with libbun  it's different and you don't you could have the fire on the wrong side. Okay now there's such a thing there's a machlokes achronim  about that but that machlokes  is about libbun gamur when you make something burning hot like that's even hotter and that's because they say is because there it's as if the thing is on fire itself the whole thing is on fire. But it doesn't work for libbun kal . So some people say it's okay it's only glass anyhow it's just a chumra  so it's okay even though the fire is a little on the wrong side some people get away with that. And some people say no, lema'aseh  you have the fire on the wrong side. Okay, so if you think like that, what should you do? What am I going to do? I have this, this is my stovetop, what am I supposed to do? So for that there's a solution and that is basically he says I'm not going to kasher  my stovetop. Okay, well how am I going to cook? What I'm going to do is I'm going to make sure my pots never touch the stovetop. And that's by using these disks. These disks are really made for a different kind of glass stovetop, I'll talk about that for a second afterwards, for an induction stovetop. And these are for induction stovetops, can only use certain kind of pots on them, ferromagnetic pots. So if you don't have that kind of pot in your house, you put this disk down and the disk takes the role of that. But for our purposes, you can buy these on Amazon, any place, Target sells them, everybody you can buy them. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What's this called? R’ Dovid Cohen: It's called an induction disk. It's just really for our purposes it's just a metal disk and the point is when you put this down on the stovetop, the pots that you have are not going to touch the stovetop. So I didn't kasher  my stovetop, you're right I didn't kasher it. Okay. But I didn't ever put the pot on, I never put the pot onto the stovetop. Right. Okay, so this works and you can put these down. Just a word of caution that if you think about what you're doing is you're leaving this on your stovetop, it's going to be burning hot. Okay. So you should not take this off, of course not with your hands. Okay. Even some people have burnt their gloves trying to take them off because they get so hot. And someone else told me, someone told me also they took it and they put it onto their counter, their counter was Formica and they melted, no I'm sorry, their Pesach  counters were covered with something plastic, they covered it, they put this down, it melted right through that. So anyhow, it comes with a little handle to lift it off so you don't have to touch the heat yourself and put it down someplace that can handle the heat. Okay. Now and it brings me to mention, I'll mention two other things. One is even the glass stovetops if you kasher  it by heating up the turning on the burners, it only kashers  right around those burners. The space in between doesn't get kashered . And one last thing was I mentioned quickly about the induction stovetops. Induction stovetops, I don't know if you're familiar with it, it's a more modern kind of stovetop and in it it's glass on top, but there's no coils underneath it. When you turn it on you don't see, it doesn't get hot at all. Okay. And it works through, it's not important how it works, it's something called induction. It makes your pot hot but it itself doesn't ever get hot. So those stovetops have no way to kasher  them. You can't get them hot, it just doesn't work, there's no way to get them hot. So for those you have to use these disks. That's the only way to do it. You will not have kashered it and you just put your pot on top of that. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Any final thoughts on this topic as regards to Pesach  or kashering  from kosher  to treif ? Any other thoughts? R’ Dovid Cohen: The induction, the only final thought is about the induction I'll just throw in. Induction has its own issues with Shabbos  and bishul akum  issues. In other words, if you think about it, an induction stovetop, when you pick your pot up actually the coil stops producing electricity. So it has Shabbos  questions, it has other complications. If a person has an induction stovetop... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Meaning turning it on is not going to help for if a goy ... R’ Dovid Cohen: Right, when you turn it on nothing happens, but if a goy  comes and puts food on, that's a bishul akum  problem. It's a Shabbos  issue also every time you put the pots on and off. So a person with an induction stovetop really needs to ask shailos . We were just talking about the kashering  part of it. They have to just think about it, it has other complications. But for a regular stovetop again, some people will do what we said, turn on the coils and that kashers the area right around them. Right. And other people are not comfortable with that and they just use these disks instead. Excellent. Thank you so much.

Part 3 of our Q&A series with Rav Shmuel Fuerst Dayan of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois to answer some of the recent questions that came in to us at Let's Talk Kashrus. This week's Q&A focuses on some hilchos shabbos issues.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let’s Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am honored to be joined by Rav  Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan  of Agudath Yisrael  of Illinois. Thank you Rav  Fuerst for joining us. We’re continuing our series here of shailos  that people have submitted to Let’s Talk Kashrus . So today we’d like to discuss various Shabbos  and Yom Tov  related shailos , Shabbos  and Yom Tov  scenarios. And the first question is, is raw meat or fish considered muktzah ? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: The Mechaber  says in Shin-Ches that raw meat is chazai l'umtza , you can eat it, it’s right to it, you could chew it. You’d have to chew it. L'maisa , the Aruch HaShulchan and Rav  Moshe, today people don’t eat raw meat, so memeila  all raw meats or chicken or fish is considered muktzah . And therefore you cannot metaltel  it, it has the din of muktzah machmas gufo , you’re not allowed to move it even l'tzorech gufo u'mekomo . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right, so the practical questions were, could it be moved within a fridge or freezer, especially very often you’re trying to get to other foods in the fridge or freezer, number one? And number two, let's say it falls out of the fridge or freezer, could I put it back in? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: Yes, right. Therefore, since it's a problem of muktzah , so a person before Shabbos , a woman before Shabbos she organizes the refrigerator and freezer to make sure in the front of the fridge are stuff that's ro'uy l'achila , so she shouldn't have a problem, and the stuff that's muktzah  should be in the back. And the same thing in a refrigerator also, the stuff that's muktzah  should be kept in the back so you shouldn't run into a problem moving, because to move on Shabbos it's muktzah . On Yom Tov  it would be muttar  because to get to the ochel , so on Yom Tov  there's a special halacha  it's okay, you're allowed to move muktzah  to get to the ochel . But on Shabbos it's a serious problem of muktzah . Therefore you should have all the raw meat and chicken in the back and the stuff like ice cream or cake what you have in the freezer and refrigerator keep in the front so you shouldn't run into the problem. If let's say by mistake you open the freezer, the freezer is full and chicken and chicken falls out, raw chicken falls out, raw meat, today raw chicken, raw meat is very expensive today, falls on the floor, and if you let it stay, and especially in the summertime, you let it stay on the floor it's going to melt and it's going to get ruined and so on. So there's a Mishnah Berurah  that brings down a machlokos Taz , Magen Avraham , and the Mishnah Berurah  is machmir . However, in the sefer   Shalmei Yehuda  he brings down from Rav Elyashiv that in a makom hefsed meruba  you could somich  on the shitah of the Taz  and you could pick it up and put it back into the freezer. And if you want to be machmir  like the Magen Avraham , the only thing you do is kil-achar-yad , because muktzah  is only muttar to move, it's muktzah machmas gufo , you're only allowed to move it kil-achar-yad . But Rav  Elyashiv is meikel  in a makom hefsed gadol  it’s expensive, then you're allowed to put it back into the freezer. Well what's the qualifications for hefsed gadol  by a yachid ? Each person is different. Some people, very wealthy people, if a piece of meat today costs twenty-five dollars means nothing to them, some people it's a supper. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay. Do we consider double-walled thermoses as a kli rishon  or a kli sheni ? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: It’s a kli sheni . A thermos bi'klal  is always considered a kli sheni and there’s no issur  of hatmanah . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay. A couple is on a Friday night walking tour in Rome, this is a real question, a couple’s on a Friday night walking tour in Rome and the guide says that she's Jewish but she carries a phone and a water bottle where there's no eruv . So here's the two questions: number one, could they continue the tour or must they stop because it's like they're causing this person who's a Yid  to be mechalel Shabbos ? But do they even have to believe her that she's halachically Jewish when she says so? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: It doesn't hurt to ask her. She says she's Jewish already, there's no reason why she should say it if she's saying it already. You should ask her how you know you're Jewish and sometimes they'll say yes, my father is Jewish, so then we know she's not Jewish. So you can ask her one or two questions and you can probably find out right away she's Jewish or not Jewish. If she's not Jewish certainly then there's no problem. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right, and if she says her mother's Jewish then she has ne'emanus  to say so. R’ Shmuel Fuerst: Yeah, for this much you have to tell her, listen, you cut the thing short, find some way it shouldn't be a chillul Hashem  and cut the tour short and that's it because you're causing her to carry on Shabbos . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. Okay, one final shaila  in this category for Shabbos , Yom Tov . Nowadays challahs  are much softer than they were in the times of Shulchan Aruch . Are we still required to make an indent before making the bracha ? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: It says in Shulchan Aruch  that when you wash, when you make a... Hamotzi , Lechem Mishneh , you should cut a little bit into the top of the challah  and then afterwards you cut. The reason why that's done because olden times the challos  were very, very hard, so it shouldn't be too big of a hefsek , so you cut it. Today, all challos  today are so soft, so this shayla was asked to Rav Moshe  and Rav Moshe  said you don't have to, today you don't have to make the indentation. Even though you see people still normally do, nothing wrong with doing it, nothing wrong with doing it. You're not making no, because some people say it's shalem , it's still shalem , still shalem , still shalem , so if one wants to do it, let them do it, let them continue doing it. It's still halacha , still halacha and shalem , right? Yeah, but you don't have to do it, it's not m'akeiv . But that was the reason why, why was because it was hard to cut, so you would start cutting before to make it easier, to make it easier. Okay.

So you booked a beautiful Airbnb… now what? In this episode of Let’s Talk Kashrus , Rabbi Sholem Fishbane - Kashrus Administrator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council, and Executive Director of AKO, walks us through the practical halachic realities of using an Airbnb kitchen. From stovetops and ovens to microwaves, Keurigs, sinks, and even barbecues — what can you use, what needs kashering, and what should you avoid altogether? Whether you're traveling for vacation, Yom Tov, or business, this Airbnb Survival Guide gives clear, practical guidance to help you stay kosher.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project and the CRC of Chicago. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator at the CRC of Chicago, the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you Rabbi Fishbane for joining us. Always a pleasure to see you. Today we'd like to discuss a topic that comes up throughout the year when people travel, they go to Airbnb’s, and they come into this beautiful apartment or house, and they settle down for a few days or for a week, and they'd like to use many of the appliances or other amenities that there are in the Airbnb, but they don't know from a kashrus  standpoint what they may use, what they can't use. Could you walk us through, give us some tips as to what people could do when they go to an Airbnb? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Yes, that's a great question and we get that all the time. So I'll share with you what we've put together based on all the questions that come through. So the very first thing you should assume is that all the utensils and appliances and counters and sinks are not kosher . And this is critical. Even if the guy says I only rent it to kosher people. That is way very common. Today we won't get into the halachic reasons why, but you need to assume that it's not kosher  and sometimes the hotels like to do that, but you're coming in, it's not kosher . So now what, right? So some people are smart and they think ahead of time, so they will bring their own pots. Their own pots and pans from home. And then the question only becomes can they use the stove top? So if you bring your own pots and pans from home, you can use the stove top as is, no problem. If it's an electric, a glass-covered rather, a glass-covered, that you would need to kasher . How do you kasher  that? You turn on each burner one or two at a time, not all four at the same time, for 15 minutes before placing the kosher  pot onto the surface for the first time, and you're good to go. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And the reason you don't do all at the same time is because it could cause the glass to crack, right? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Very good. Yeah, so it's a practical thing, it's not a halachic  thing. Exactly. And then you look at just as you said, going through the kitchen. Then you have the oven. So you can use the oven after kashering it. Now how do you kasher ? Well, if you're lucky and you have what's called the self-clean cycle, that goes way up there, you do that and you're 100% that's the best, that's libun gamur . You can kasher  that way. Let's say it's the traditional that it doesn't only go higher than I don't know 550. So assuming that it's an eino ben yomo , and a person can assume it's an eino ben yomo , you can turn it on for 550 degrees, which is the highest, for one hour, and then you could use it. Obviously it has to be cleaned inside, but that would be as far as the oven goes. Moving on, what about the microwave? So there's different shittos in microwave, I'm just sharing what we say at the CRC. There's really two ways. One way is you clean out all the visible residue that's in the microwave and then you double wrap the food on all sides. That is the somewhat the easiest. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: If someone for some reason they say no I need to kasher  the microwave, is there a way of kashering ? R’ Sholem Fishbane: So I'm not talking for Pesach  now, the Pesach  and all, let's just focus on as you said Airbnb during the year. You can kasher , yeah. Clean it very well, remove the glass plate which you cannot kasher , and then put a boiling cup of water into the chamber for about 10 minutes, 15 minutes until it fills up with steam and then you can kasher  it that way and then you can use the microwave. So that would be in terms of the microwave. Okay, so we did stove top, oven, microwave. Very common question, what about the coffee maker? Okay. So I think we've said it several times that coffee by itself is kosher , right? Plain old coffee doesn't need a hechsher  even. And most places are just going to have plain old coffee. And you can see, you can open up the cabinets, they usually leave over from the previous people, and you'll see plain old coffee, decaf, regular, it's fine. And you most of the time even see a hechsher  on it. So that's not the problem. So the plain old coffee you could use, not a problem. What you do need to worry about though is the cups, the K-cups, Keurig cups, well, so the K-cups is a little different, but let's just talk about where it's where it's the regular where it drips and you take it out. Oh okay. So that is a little bit because there's a dishwasher, you're going to assume they're going to wash it in the dishwasher. So you shouldn't use that and you certainly shouldn't use the ceramic cups. That bring from home or figure out a way how to get into your cup that way. But the coffee maker... self is okay. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So if I could remove let's say that glass container and then put in my own cup and let it drip directly into it, that would be okay. R’ Sholem Fishbane: 100 percent. And I could use the maker. That's not the problem. Yeah, that's not the problem. The Keurig also. Keurig machines in general almost all of them are there used to be, I'm talking about 15 years ago or 10 years ago, they made a non-kosher Keurig cup. They made chicken soup or something. But they've discontinued that long gone, so there's almost never you're going to have something really non-kosher going in a Keurig machine. So it's not a problem to use a Keurig machine. You use their cups, no problem. If someone is makpid  on cholov stam keilim , sometimes you'll have a Keurig pod that might be a hot chocolate that's milchig . That you should look out for. But if one is not makpid  on keilim  but keeps cholov yisroel  but not on keilim , so then you're okay making a Keurig using the Keurig machine because again almost all the ones that I've seen on Keurigs and these pods, they're either going to be kosher or kosher dairy across the board. Okay. Obviously we said before the dishwasher you cannot use. Toaster also we don't recommend using, also because people use it for non-kosher. Now what about the you open these drawers, there's all sorts of utensils, right? You could have a can opener, corkscrew, a cup, a dish, a silverware, a sinktop, water pitchers. What about all those? There's a slew of those. So if you're going to use them for hot, you should not use it for hot for blios  of treif . But for cold, assuming that they're clean, let's say you want to take a drink using a cup, a cold drink, that's okay. If you want to use the can opener or the corkscrew or something like that, that's okay. Obviously you want to make sure that it's clean. When I say clean, sometimes it gets trapped in the crevices. There's residue that gets trapped in the cracks. You make sure it's clean, but halachically it's okay to use that, and that really, that really helps people when they go to the Airbnb. And finally, just walking through the kitchen, the only thing that comes to mind that one should avoid is also the oven mitts. Okay. We advise against using the oven mitts, the placemats, and the colander also, just based on watching what goes on and all that. So that's pretty much what happens in an Airbnb kitchen, and there's lots of ways to make it work. One of the things, just that you know kind of a nice little thing I learned from my brother Bentzy, he taught us a nice trick when we go out to these places, and people worry about barbecue. So what we do is we buy ourselves a grate, just like kind of like an oven grate, tovel it, and that's one of the things that slips into your the front flap of your suitcase all the time. And once you have that, you go to a Walmart, you buy yourself a nice big throwaway turkey roaster, aluminum pan that's sturdy, and then you go buy yourself a thing of charcoal and you light it and you can make your own barbecue wherever you want, and all you really needed to worry about was that one grate. Afterwards you clean it and you put it back in your suitcase and you're good to go. So that's something that... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And you've seen this work? R’ Sholem Fishbane: I've seen it work, we do it all the time whenever we get together, and it's just a nice little tip. Not a kashrus necessarily, but just once we're talking about... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Listen, here at Kashrus  Awareness, we give practical tips, we give kashrus  tips, we give everything. I wanted to ask you one thing about sinks also in Airbnbs. I don't know if you touched on that. Putting keilim  into sinks, turning on the hot water in the sink and things of that sort, if you could give some guidance. R’ Sholem Fishbane: So basically what you want to be careful is that when you do wash the keilim , that you wash it at lukewarm. And that's something that therefore you want to give only an adult to be in charge of washing the sink so that there's no blios  from the sink. That's a good point also, yes. So keep it soapy and lukewarm and you're good to go. Got it. And a practical thing is maybe don't wear gloves because then you don't realize how hot... Right, right, right. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Great point. Anyway, it's been a great short summary here, helping us get through our Airbnb experience. As always, Rabbi Fishbane, thank you for joining us.

We have discussed party planners in the past, but this week we focus on another angle. Rabbi Yaakov Eisenbach - Rabbinic Coordinator at the cRc gives us the mashgiach's perspective of giving a hechsher to an event that is being run by a party planner, and the complexities it entails.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Yaakov Eisenbach, rabbinic coordinator for food service at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you Rabbi Eisenbach for joining us, how are you? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Doing wonderful. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: We want to talk to you about today just for a few minutes is party planners. Now we've done some episodes about party planners but I want to hear from you as a veteran Mashgiach  what you encounter when you deal with party planners and hopefully we could have a few takeaways from this conversation both for party planners who may be watching this and also for the everyday man for the consumer so that they should know what happens when there is that interaction between the party planner who's trying to do their job and the Mashgiach  who obviously has an achrayus  to do his job. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: You can have a party planner who does the party themselves. And they'll do from A to Z and I always tell the party planners because I've gone to party planners, I've been dealing with this for years. I say go under Hashgacha . She says, "We're not a caterer." I said, "You are a caterer. You have keilim . You have utensils. Whether it's toiveled or not I don't know because no one's overseeing any of these party planners. And where's it washed? This is just an example. They'll go into a house and you have equipment and they're doing fifty person party. Now, are they cooking the food? No." I said, "The only difference between you and a caterer will say is that they might have a kitchen. But no difference, you're getting the food is like you're having a kitchen, you're preparing it, you're keeping you're renting hot boxes, you're renting equipment. Is it kosher , not kosher  equipment, who's kashering it for you?" So if you go into a private party and someone invites you for a parlor meeting you should look for a Mashgiach . But then these party planners will go ahead and as one party planner once told me, we just gotta get the job done. Whatever it takes to do. So if it's a Shabbos  party for example, they might send the person we ran out of ice, go get the ice on Shabbos . Now, being at a party your it doesn't meet your standard that you're having the goyim  doing things that would not be permitted in your own house. So that's a regular party planner and I've been dealing with it and I've gone I've tried in Chicago where I've gone to shuls  and met with the Rabbonim  to give policies. Some shuls  do have policies. But I said you have a party planner coming in here. I'll give you a case yesterday. Somebody there was a shul , very good in Hashgacha , the regular Mashgiach  is out of town, one of our caterers doing a job, and they say, "Could you do us a favor and could you find us a Mashgiach ?" So I was out of town but I texted them a couple names. So this person texted back and I told them I can't talk, speak to my associate who I work with if you have any questions about it. So here's a prime example. So the party planner said be here at five o'clock. Now Shabbos means it already started. So obviously everything was prepared beforehand, meaning they brought the food, had to put it in the hot boxes or however they're prepping, putting up the blech  if it's being done properly, and they said to come at five o'clock. Five o'clock means come by the meal. So a lot of these party planners it's more of a show that they have to have a Mashgiach  because the shul  requires a Mashgiach but they're dictating what time to come. Five o'clock, everything is done. Meaning whatever had to been done for the prep, tables are set, the oven was put in or whatever they're using for equipment for Shabbos  if they're doing it properly. So my associate told them, which I would have told them, you call up when they're bringing the food, you're there from the beginning till after clean-up. And I've had that too where another rabbi came up to me two weeks ago. He had a party planner in his shul , okay, they hired their own Mashgiach , it's usually a CRC Mashgiach  that they hire because I can't stop them, they're a freelancer to do what they want. And they went ahead and and he's hired by her so he's not following the CRC rule as far as that is and he left at the end after everything was done. Meantime the party planner's there loading up her car for after I mean I don't even know what she did or he did whoever the party planner was and just loaded all, cleaned up the thing and loaded up the truck and had the non-Jewish person I think I don't know they took it away on Shabbos  or just not. But if what happened by us that doesn't do it because either sometimes we have to move it let's say if we're in an area where they gotta get it out, so they have the truck parked and they leave it there. Mashgiach holds onto the keys until after Shabbos  so we know no one can say anything. And then they go. But here, the rabbi came to me and says, we don't allow her back. We gave her a phone call. We're not allowing this party planner back. So these are just issues that the party planners themselves do on their own because they don't have to play by rules. But then we had a story, I would say, about two years ago. They bought new equipment, was a party, bought new equipment for hotel, everything right. What was the problem? The tevilas keilim . So, gotta do a party, so the mashgiach  went with the workers there. There was a river right there to go tovel  the keilim . Wow. Every single kli . Wow. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What percentage of party planners do you think today have hashgacha ? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: None. None. I have not heard of a party planner. We once had a caterer who was really, R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: at least the ones you deal with. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: The ones I deal with. I haven't heard anybody from out of town tell me. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Like you said, that's a big, big problem. First of all, who's overseeing, even if the caterer they use has hashgacha , we're assuming the caterer they're using. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: I mean, they're getting the food. They're getting the food from somewhere. A drop-off. A drop-off means here's your food, zei gezunt . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But who's ensuring that the hashgacha on that establishment is reliable? Who's ensuring that however their keilim are being washed, that that's being washed properly? Right? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Not being washed in a facility with somebody's house. Somebody's house. You wouldn't eat in their house. I've had this. Now she has her own dishes or he has his own dishes, the party planner. Now you have those dishes washed in someone's house, fine. And then they want to go ahead and do a vort  or a fifty person dinner and you got a beautiful china. And she's bringing it with the caterer. CRC caterer or whatever hashgacha  they're under. You don't know what these plates are. What do they say to you? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So what do you do as a representative of the CRC? You show up, a party planner brings their own dishes and you don't know where those dishes have been. So what do you do? You say you can't use them? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Right. They're not used. We'll walk out. If you insist on that, I'll tell the mashgiach , he'll be paid for his full day, we will walk out. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But I would say the takeaway from our conversation is twofold. From the party planner standpoint, obviously we would encourage every party planner to have a reputable hashgacha . No question. It's definitely an extra expense for them, but it's vital that they have hashgacha . Right? Am I right about that? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Yeah. It's not such an extra expense over a year. You know what I'm saying? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You know, and it's and I would say from the consumer standpoint, I think maybe the way to make inroads on this issue is if people, when you hire a party planner, the first question you should be asking is, do you have hashgacha ? And then the more it becomes part of the conversation, maybe, maybe, maybe there will be some kind of transformation. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Comes from pressure from the consumer, literally. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Rabbi Eisenbach, it's been a pleasure sitting with you. It's so nice to hear your reminiscences about your experiences in kashrus , besides for your insight regarding this specific topic of party planners, and we hope to speak to you again. Thank you. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Thank you.

Part 2 of our Q&A series with Rav Shmuel Fuerst Dayan of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois to answer some of the recent questions that came in to us at Let's Talk Kashrus. This week's Q&A focuses on common dining related issues.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus  presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am honored to be joined once again by Rav  Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan  of Agudas Yisrael  of Illinois. Thank you Rav  Fuerst for being here again. We'd like to continue our discussion of Shailos  that came in and hear the Tshuvos of the Rav . So a Shaila  that we got is whether there is Bishul Akum  when it comes to a microwave. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: I saw several people discuss it if there's Bishul Akum  by microwave. We hold L'dina  there is Bishul Akum  by microwave. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Because we consider it real cooking? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Real cooking. I asked this Shaila  to Reb  Elyashiv, he told me there's Bishul Akum . I asked Reb  Shlomo Zalman, he told me there's Bishul Akum . So I asked Reb  Shlomo Zalman in his Sefer Minchas Shlomo , he says on Shabbos  he holds that it's a Bishul D'rabbanan . And Bishul D'rabbanan  has no Bishul Akum , so also on Shabbos  only Bishul D'rabbanan , so l'chora  it should be there's no Bishul Akum  by microwave. I asked him this so he told me that there's a chillek . On Shabbos  the reason why it's not D'Oraisa  because not domeh to Melachas Hamishkan . So therefore that's why in microwave is only D'rabbanan . Mashe ein kein  for Bishul Akum  is zicher  it's considered Bishul Akum , it has all the halachos  of Bishul Akum  by microwave. I asked the same thing to Reb  Yisrael Yaakov Fisher, he told me also there is Bishul Akum  by microwave. So consensus of the Poskim is there is an issur Bishul Akum  by microwave. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah, it's obviously nogaya  to the food, it's nogaya  to Keilim , right, to the microwave itself. It's nogaya  to the microwave itself as well. Yeah, I'm saying this could come up in someone's house if they have cleaning help. It comes up sometimes. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Very often it's not nogaya , most of the time people use a microwave just to reheat. So it's already cooked by a Yisroel , so it's only reheated, the issue is not Bishul Akum . But sometimes there are certain things that you do a microwave, you cook mamash  cooking, then there will be issur Bishul Akum  if something's oleh al shulchan melachim . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. A senior Posek  was quoted as saying that the harder age cheeses that we have nowadays are not like they used to be and you don't have to wait six hours after eating these cheeses. Do we follow this opinion? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: The consensus of most Poskim  is not like that and you have to wait six hours for these real hard cheeses. Now in America it's not shchiach , you don't see it that often around, especially unless it's a store that specializes in cheeses. Most of the cheeses you buy in a store are not a problem of six hours. Parmesan cheese there are Poskim  hold you wait six hours, that's consensus of most Poskim . But the regular cheese you don't have to, American type, all American type cheese you do not have to wait six hours. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Got it. How about if the cheese was melted into a dish, do you still have to wait? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Something like Parmesan cheese, something like that, it's only if it's eaten raw. But if it's melted, the Yad Yehuda says in siman pay tes , the Yad Yehuda  says that if it's melted it's no more takes away the charifus , the charifus , and therefore you don't have to wait six hours. So nogaya  certain fancy pizzas that are made with Parmesan cheese, that's when it's nogaya . Where it's melted in. Melted in, yeah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: If one eats meat and then goes to sleep for half hour, does this break the six hour wait? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: There's a Shaila  in the Achronim , Daas Kedoshim  and other Achronim  clarify the Shaila  if you sleep in between. However, L'dina  the consensus of almost all Poskim is you must wait six hours no matter if you slept, you didn't sleep, it doesn't matter how long you slept, you must wait six hours and that's it, finished. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Funny when I mentioned this question to someone and I mentioned to the Rav , he's like who ever heard of such a thing? I said there is a Shita  like that. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: It's a Shita , sure, the Daas Kedoshim , there are some people that are meikel , but l'mayseh you must wait six hours. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Otherwise they'd be going to sleep all the time. What Bracha  does a person make on schnitzel? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: I asked this Shaila  many years ago to Reb  Moshe and he told me on schnitzel you make Mezonos , you davka make a Mezonos . I says what about a B'racha Achrona ? He said no, just one Bracha , that's what Reb  Moshe told me. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Mezonos  because of the breading? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Because of the breading, right. I asked this to and I saw printed in the name of Reb  Elyashiv. Rav Elyashiv holds that it's printed in two places. One place it's printed you make only mezonos , another place he says you make two brachos . I didn't see, it's quoted in the Sefer Ashrei Ish . I didn't see the mekoros  where he wrote over there. Or it could be in one place he writes that you make two brachos  is when you have something like chicken where you have a lot of chicken and you have this coating, this breaded coating on. That could be maybe he held you make two brachos . But Rav Elyashiv  it's printed you make a mezonos . One place says make two brachos . If you make two brachos , it could be that case was a little bit different. But normally schnitzel  according to Rav Moshe for sure you make mezonos . According to Rav Elyashiv  it's a sha'ala what he held exactly. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And when you say mezonos , Rav Shmuel Fuerst: I tell everyone to make mezonos . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Make mezonos  really? Doesn't matter how thick the coating is? Even a thin coating? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: It doesn't make a difference. Made le-ta'am . And that's how we tell everyone dina . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And a bracha achrona ? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Bracha achrona  depends if you had a kezayis of it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: A kezayis  of the coating? Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Of the coating, right, R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: which is probably not so shchiach . Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Depends how thick it is. Depends how thick the coating is. So the bracha  would be a sha'ala . I, to run it in my house, we use cornflake crumbs not to run into sha'alas . So it's always a shehakol . So it's always a shehakol . You run out of sha'alas  so we use cornflake crumbs and that's it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So when you're saying that it's mezonos , that's when you're using breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs, yeah. Right. I guess it's the truth is that it's hard to know. We would have to find out what they're using. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: Best thing is what I do. I tell my wife uses from, what did I say again? A cornflake, cornflake crumbs, yeah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I was going to say when you go to a simcha or you go to a restaurant or you go to a takeout store you don't always know what they're using. What they're using. Rav Shmuel Fuerst: They're using breadcrumbs derech klal usually, yeah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And then according to the Rav  the bracha would be mezonos , bracha achrona  would be al hamichya  if you ate a kezayis  of the breading. Right, correct. Okay, thank you so much.

When Out-Of-Town When traveling to small towns that have local hechsherim, how does one go about finding out if they can rely on that hechsher? Rabbi Yaakov Eisenbach - Rabbinic Coordinator at the cRc, gives us some guidance on this topic. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus  presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Yaakov Eisenbach, rabbinic coordinator for food service at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you Rabbi Eisenbach for being here once again. So nice to see you. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Always such an honor to be here and coming back. Thank you. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So I want to talk to you about consumers who go out of town. I get this a lot. First of all, people travel much more than they used to, many people travel on business, people go out of town, they come to a restaurant, the restaurant may have a hashgacha  but they don't recognize what it is, they don't know what they could eat. Give us a little guideline as a mashgiach who's been doing this for over two decades, you've been there, you've seen it, you see what goes on in these places. Give that traveling consumer a few tips for what he or she should know when they're on the road. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: The number one thing I would tell a consumer or someone who travels a lot or even if you don't travel, you go once a year, twice a year, and we're going there and call our office and call the cRc or call someone you know in kashrus  and say do you know anything about this place, can I eat there. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Very often, I'll just mention, very often they don't have the ability to do so because they don't even know this restaurant exists until they get to the city and then they're there and they're in the local shul  and they or something or they meet someone and they say to someone, do you know if there's any place to eat over here and they say yeah, there's this restaurant down the block and they go there and now they're literally sitting in the restaurant. They didn't have a chance to call the cRc to prep them. They might have a few cans of sardines and tuna in their hotel room, they brought a little preparation, a few crackers, but now they're on the spur of the moment, what could they do. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: So again in these small towns we acknowledge that there are different levels based on the town and availability. So in a big city we expect the hashgacha  to be of a higher level. Certain small towns the rav  wants to bring kashrus and have some place for people to eat out in order to raise up population, people can be able to. One of the things people look at is there a shul , is there a mikvah , is there other things that a day school, a high school, Jewish infrastructure. One of the Jewish infrastructure is to have food service, place to go out for breakfast. Even if it's not but there's somewhere we can go get a coffee and not deal with Starbucks and look at the list, oh I can get this latte that's made with I don't even know how to pronounce it. So we understand so let's say we go to a bigger city where there's more mashgichim  available, where the consumer there also is of a higher level where they want and there's a small city where you can't find anybody to help and they're not doing anything big. We're not talking about fleishig  restaurants like a small bagel place, maybe milchig , so there's guidelines of what would be the minimum hashgacha , what is the maximum hashgacha . So you go to a town again you could be out in Oklahoma, I don't know and then they have a small shul there and the local rav  gives a hechsher  to a bagel place. So will you have a mashgiach temidi  there, no you probably won't. But if it's under hashgacha , you got to get a hold of the rav  and speak to him just say what are the standards that you have here. Is there any cholov yisroel  of again, depends on your standard. The bagels, where are they coming from. If you're makpid  on pas yisroel . Pas yisroel sure. So he'll tell you a lot of the places they do turn it on depending on the hashgacha  of who's giving it in that local town. That rav  might be makpid  on pas yisroel  or I've seen it where it's not pas yisroel  but they bake challahs  for them so on Fridays or Thursdays the rabbi goes in and turns it on. Oh is that right. I've seen it. I've seen it. But for somebody traveling and there's a town usually it's the local rav  who's the rav hamachshir . So that is the number one person to call. So some places if it's a fleishig  restaurant now do you have a mashgiach temidi there. We're talking more issues. I mean in a regular milchig  restaurant you have issues too. Is there bishul yisroel , just the actual cooking. Bedikas tolaim  right. Bedikas tolaim  and some people say the rav  will tell you don't eat the tolaim . I'm relying on this for the hamon am but for you it's not. Don't eat vegetables. Right.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: There are people by the way who travel who do ask these there are people I could think of who reach out to me and I'm just kind of the middle person here because they know I have a connection to many kashrus  agencies through Let's Talk Kashrus  and the people who travel and they're constantly asking I'm going to Bermuda, I'm going to Panama, I'm going talking about outside the United States or I'm traveling to the Midwest so on and so forth and they want to know what. Where they could eat. So beyond speaking to the local rov  or if you're doing it in advance you're speaking to the cRc is there anything else that someone should know? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Sure. Let's say you go and there is a mashgiach there. But you don't know let's say the hashgacha  it's a big city but you've never heard of this hashgacha . So the first thing you should ask is is there a mashgiach  here present? They say yeah so and I've taught this to my kids too you know the first thing just throw questions meaning is the tuna bishul yisrael ? Is the bread pas yisrael ? What's yoshon ? Which meat are you using? And if the mashgiach  just boom boom boom boom you know you're doing good. You know again is he there all the time? I don't know but at least you know there's somebody overseeing what's going on in the place. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You're saying the way someone answers a question tells you a lot about their knowledge their efficiency their accountability. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Some places I've been was very nice they have a list and the daily list of because certain people want this meat hashgacha this hashgacha  and they write on each day what the meat is this chicken cutlets is this hashgacha  the meat ground beef is this. So that's you know that's knowledgeable you know we have at the CRC and we're upgrading it you know as we have these screens you ever been in Chicago at a restaurant in Chicago? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I've been in one restaurant I think in Chicago. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Okay I'll call Rabbi Fishbane we'll invite you come in there we'll take you around a little bit you'll see what we do. We have these screens some have broken down we're getting we're updating it where it's going to be able because everything's online by us of all our restaurants of what they have what's the the status of the yoshon   pas yisrael  and bishul yisrael  tuna and all that but we're going to be updating it that automatically any changes they're going to be wifi into this screen that we're going to have in every restaurant and just update whenever it has to update. You can literally look it up on the spot. It's there it's sitting on we have them in our places some and then also because we're open they have my cellphone number on it you have any questions call me or my yotzei v'nichnas . And I've gotten over the years I've got some phone calls. We're here to help the consumer out and we're not trying to cover anything. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You know before we wrap up I'm sure as a mashgiach and I'm sure other your fellow mashgichim  encounter this issue of kashrus out of town because precisely because you're traveling so much right so you end up in many places in a durf  somewhere some village some town where there aren't many Jewish establishments if any right and I'm sure you so the mashgichim themselves are dealing with this challenge. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Yeah so they usually brown bag it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah is that right? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Oh yeah yeah I go to a Walmart bring along your rice cakes I always whenever I travel rice cakes and cheese you know. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Rice cakes and cheese that's the go to? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Oh that's my go to from Wisconsin you got to take the cheese but R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: and how do you keep that how do you maybe you have an ice pack or R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: No they bring when you get to the hotel you pour ice over everything. But I have the luxury I deal with food service so I have all the headaches but I get to be home every night so I don't have to travel so much get to be in yeshiva  I get to do you know but it's I can be up this week mashgiach  got sick 5:00 a.m. in the morning he says he's going to go open up but I got to find a replacement for him. So that's a different type of you know the dedication of the mashgichim . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Sure sure sure. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: And food service is I always talk about is I mean we could talk about this something else to discuss is just the day to day what a mashgiach  does compared to somebody who goes to a company you know a company you go there forty five minutes half hour check the items you get paid certain amount but a food service in normal cases they're getting paid by the hour and they're. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You know I'm happy that you mentioned the dedication of mashgiach  we'll end with this because just this week I met the rebbitzen  of a certain mashgiach  wife very dedicated mashgiach someone who's worked in the field of kashrus  for many years and what emerged from my conversation is that most people don't appreciate the dedication of kashrus   mashgichim  besides that they don't get paid enough which is a conversation for a separate episode but just their mere dedication most of which goes unnoticed and flies under the radar it really is a tremendous service to klal yisrael  all of the products we have and the plethora of items that we have in kosher supermarkets and so on and so forth is thanks to people like yourself who may be you know on the higher level and then the on the field mashgichim  who really enable us to enjoy the many items that are available. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: When I was in yeshiva  I mean as a kid bein hazmanim  I used to work for extra money so we used to do the cholov yisrael  runs in those days it's not the same now where you have three four farms with thousands of animals. And the hours and the you get paid. I'm not saying they don't pay, but the dedication like you've said here where they'll travel and they're away from home all week. Sure, I understand they got to make a parnassah  and they're doing that, but it's you know, or they sit on a farm for a whole week so they get to learn, they get to this. But the mesiras nefesh , they go away for Shabbos . You know, and I think about in food service too. A mashgiach there's Shabbos  parties, they got to take care of the mashgiach , you know, but they're not home for Shabbos . They're not home, right? Right. Right. You ever go see a thank you to the mashgiach  and say, I know it's not easy for you to get away from home and thank you and your wife that you're able to enhance our Shabbos  by being here. You know, you go all these big, big dinners that they have, right? The amount of time that goes planning it and spend behind the times and working with it, you know when it's a three, four-day convention, right? Yeah, sure. What goes behind it and the hours and the walking. I had to get three pairs of shoes at times, you know, once at Pesach  one time besides the cruises, okay, that I could tell you stories about that too. But you're 16, 17, 18 hours on your feet. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow. You know? Listen, it's unbelievable what the mashgichim  do and Rabbi Eisenbach, you as well, thank you for your immense contributions to the world of kashrus  as you've been doing for a good over 20 years. So thank you for that and thank you once again for joining us. We appreciate it. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Kashrus Complication Oftentimes at high end resorts, these statements can be heard. "The chef knows kosher", or "I'm only getting fish in a brand-new pan", or "The resort has a separate kosher kitchen". Unfortunately, these statements are becoming more and more common, but it really boils down to just 1 question says Rabbi Sholom Tendler - Kashrus Administrator at the STAR-K, "Is there a mashgiach?" Are we really going to trust non-Jewish staff about kashrus now? Who ensures the pots and pans in the separate kitchen, stay separate? Let's educate ourselves about the myriad potential problems with such resorts. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project and the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholom Tendler, kashrus administrator at the Star-K. Thank you Rabbi Tendler for joining us once again. R’ Sholom Tendler: Pleasure, thank you for having me back. Appreciate it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Today we'd like to discuss a very important topic, something that comes up, perhaps at one time it would have been only during the summer or only during travel season, but now people seem to be traveling all over all year round traveling to more exotic places. It's become very in vogue. People going to Panama, Cancun, Puerto Rico, other locales in South America, which may be not have might not have been as common years ago. I think it's become much more common. So if someone's going to a hotel with a hashgacha , obviously they should find out whether the hashgacha is reliable, what the standards are. But something that's been coming to our table here at Let's Talk Kashrus  is something called like a “kosher brand”. They go to either a resort or a private cabin or something like that, and and they literally advertise that they offer kosher, whatever that means. They don't have a hashgacha , they don't have a mashgiach . Talk about that. Is there anything to be done about that and how people should be aware that there are many kashrus  pitfalls involved? R’ Sholom Tendler: Yeah, I still get stunned by the question whenever this comes up. The typical question is I'm going to X, Y, and Z resort, it's under X, Y, and Z hashgacha , is it reliable? Fair question. Gets a fair answer. Either we know, we don't know, look into it, at least we know what we're dealing with. But this new thing that's been coming up recently where people go to these exotic resorts and private vacations in in you rent cabins or houses and they offer kosher. So, you know, in the old days, which is probably not too long ago, they would offer packaged meals, airplane meals. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean those packaged meals you find in the supermarkets. They have high-end meals that they would offer in these places, but again, it's packaged, sealed. I've been to high-end events, you know, for non-kosher companies and things like that where they offer you these sealed meals, and you can do really high-end stuff there. But we're past that at this point. Now they're offering you fresh, cooked meals. The chef claims he knows kosher. Maybe he used to work in a New York hotel, and they're offering no mashgiach , no kosher kitchen necessarily. They they claim they keep dedicated equipment for kosher. As you said, the the potential problems are are endless. It's hard to know where to start. Who's buying the ingredients? Kosher meat, kosher chicken, only fish. Yeah, kosher fish, what kind of fish? You someone saw the scales? Forget salmon. Salmon, salmon's for the sushi people. This is already more high-end stuff. How in the world do you know that a skinned piece of fish in front of you, you know, with is a kosher piece of fish? Bishul Akum , shared equipment. You really believe that if they they're short a pot or a pan that they're not taking from the kosher stock? So, I happened to have the fortunate experience that some of my mashgichim  have worked in these places with families that have gone to these kinds of resorts and decided they want to do it right. We didn't certify them. Let's be very upfront about that. But they hired a mashgiach , experienced mashgiach , to go in advance, kasher , order, bring the food, work with the chef and make it as much kosher, as kosher as they were comfortable with. Everyone according to their standards, but I'm not going to judge on that piece. But at the end of the day, I got we got a little picture of what goes on in these places. These people brought a mashgiach . So the mashgiach  was shmoozing with the chef. And it's it's like, once in a while a mashgiach  comes to one of these types of trips, but not always. And people just trust the chef. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Which which is it's ludicrous. R’ Sholom Tendler: It's completely ludicrous. It's hard to say something and we generally like to just like cushion things a little bit, but this is like there's no cushioning it. There's there's just no way to rely on such a thing unless there's a hashgacha behind it or at the very least you have a mashgiach , a shomer Torah u'mitzvos  you can confirm is standing there, is going to be there to confirm that things there are kosher. And and if you think that the non-Jewish person in the kitchen is going to make sure everything stays separate, like I have many bridges to sell you. I won't start with the Brooklyn Bridge and I won't end with the Susquehanna. We're going to go to many bridges and you're going to buy them all. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No, it it really it boggles the mind to think that people who at home have a certain standard, when they travel suddenly because some resort is offering kosher with zero certification, no mashgiach , no hashgacha , somehow we're taking their word for it and the chef who's a non-Jew who may be well-meaning, suddenly we're trusting him. The the whole thing is really hard. It's hard to believe that we're even addressing it. But apparently, it's so prevalent that it needs addressing and it needs to be spoken about and people have to be really really really vigilant. R’ Sholom Tendler: As we've gotten, I mean vigilant is a bad word for it. Just don't do it. Just don't do it. Just don't do it. And we've gotten so many questions about it and and again, it's just it's it's literally like you said, mind-boggling to think what people would rely on. I it's it's just hard to understand. And we're not speaking this because we want the job. I'll be very upfront. We are not interested in certifying your personal vacation, okay? I don't care how much money you're going to pay us. We're not interested in it. There's nothing to do with that. It's very simple is that we see what goes on and we know what goes on and you don't. You don't. Right? And people don't know what's going on in the back of restaurants and and we do. And Baruch Hashem , in places that have hashgachos , you tend to believe and like to believe and for good reason that hashgachos do a good job. But in these kinds of situations, you're totally left to rely on Chef John, whoever, and it's very hard to understand why people are being someach . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Any other final thoughts on this topic of kashrus  while traveling? R’ Sholom Tendler: So I would just encourage people. There's ways to do this right, as I mentioned in the beginning. We travel too, and we travel to far-flung places many times. A little bit of advanced planning, you can you you can do this and you can do it right and you can enjoy your vacation in exotic places. I'm not necessarily encouraging people to do that, but if you do want to go, don't just decide as you mentioned, your Yiddishkeit doesn't end when you leave your front door. I think that doesn't need to be said even. But at the end of the day, there are ways to do this with a little bit of advanced planning. Call, ask, work it out. Often, you know, it's not necessarily as complicated as you think. But the one thing you should not do is don't just take random people's word for things. And make sure they're coming from reliable sources that you would rely on in your own home. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Got it. Thank you so much

The Beer Balagan So much confusion in the air regarding the recent news about beer. Is it kosher? Does it need a hechsher? Is this relevant to everyone? Do I need to stock up on beer before January 1st, 2026? We interviewed Rabbi Sholem Fishbane - Kashrus Administrator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council, and Executive Director of AKO, to find out exactly what is going on with the beer. Let's listen in to this insightful conversation. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness project. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, executive director of AKO and Kashrus  administrator of the Chicago Rabbinical Council. The reason we're meeting today is a little different than our usual episodes where we address a wide range of kashrus  topics. Today we're addressing something more timely, and that is the, what I'll call the beer tumult. Now we usually don't respond to tumults, right? That's not our style, but over here, we, and I say we, Let's Talk Kashrus , the greater kashrus world, has been inundated with questions about beer specifically after what I would say a number of East Coast hashgachos  released a statement regarding beer that seemingly changed the status quo with regard to domestic beer, at least that's the way I understand it. So let's get into it. What exactly was the statement and what surprised people? R’ Sholem Fishbane: These agencies that you mentioned did not release a statement to the public at all. It was an internal document that were sent to their establishments discussing a policy change. Like you said, a tumult or a kashrus  crisis is when we find there's a major problem, uh-oh, alerts and go out and let the world know do this. That's not what happened. It was a calculated, and I want to say three to four year discussion of when should we make a policy change to go from taking beers without a hashgacha  to only having beers with hashgacha in our establishments or parties that are under our hashgacha . Huge difference. And it was somewhat of a leaked document. It was not supposed, yes. And I'm quoting those hashgachos . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That makes this much more exciting by the way. R’ Sholem Fishbane: It was a leaked document. It was not supposed to go to the public. It was supposed to go to their establishments and give them time. And what's the biggest raya ? It says there starting January 1st. If it would be a crisis or something terrible, we would be not starting January 1st. And I heard the greatest questions at the convention, like, so if I buy beer on December 31st and I go over the international date line and I come back, does it choizer v'ne'or ? These are like the great questions, like does everyone have to stock up? Nothing is changing in terms of the metzius . My son told me in yeshiva  they they decided the reason. There's a new law passing January 1st that's going to affect all the beers. Also not true. Nothing's changing. It was a policy decision and it's important for us to understand what's going on. And that is that we've been debating internally and we at Kashrus  Awareness, if you recall, have had two episodes on beers. Rabbi Neihaus did a very thorough video explaining what beer is. I explained, I did an episode has to do with our, with our establishments and how we're going to be approaching it at each establishment. Just as a side note, we have so many, liquor has become a big part of the simchas , as we know. And many times a mashgiach , he he look, he walks in on a Shabbos and there's a bar there, he doesn't know what to do. He can't look it up online. We actually just created just last week, a CRC Kosher Liquor Guideline, a pocket where the mashgiach  can put in there, and it goes through, you know, beer and brandy and bourbon and rye and Canadian whiskey, gin, you know, a double sided. It tells us, you know, bekitzur  what the things are. Because this is the metzius  today. So what what was happening was that liquor happens to be pretty much of an established thing. Beer specifically for, you know, hundreds, maybe thousands of years, where there it was very specific, very pure. You can only use four or five things. And that is still the case in most of the world besides the United States, most of the world besides the United States, okay? And in the United States, they started playing around like we spoke about many times, craft breweries, this brewery, that brewery. And because of that, we, we in the industry, have becoming more and more nervous, like how much longer can we still feel that beer being made in the United States is is l'chatchila  kosher? And even if that beer that you picked up is not flavored or anything like that, but what happened to the keilim  and the other stuff that are going on? That's what's going on. And in particularly, there's, there's something we've been we've been finding more and more with beer, again in the United States mostly, is that they're able to use and they use sometimes lactose. Now, why do they use lactose? It has to do with the way lactose basically is a gives it a certain sweetness and smoothness that doesn't get lost when they when they do the brewing, as opposed to some of the other things. So it stays with it. It's very good. And here's the key. The key is that because beer is not moderated by the FDA, rather by something called TTB, they don't have to declare like on food. They don't have to say there's there's no allergies, even though lactose itself might not be an allergen because there's no protein in it. But beside, they don't have to, they don't have to write ingredients. It's a different type of... regulation. And and because lactose is becoming common, more common rather, I don't want to make this a it's not a crisis. It's just it's becoming more common. And lactose not only is milchig , but it could actually be non-kosher because it comes from, you know, cheese. Therefore we're we're becoming more and more concerned. We in kashrus agencies tried to give over to the tzibbur  what's called shailah -free. And when a person walks into our place, they are not looking for bedieveds . Again, this is not the consumer. So, you know, I want to give an example. I remember when I first got into kashrus , we the agencies weren't really looking at what's called transportation trucking. You know those big trucks on the side of the road they're going on down the road and all that. It was too difficult. We were we were still dealing with making sure every ingredients were kosher. We always had, you know, we we knew that even if there was something non-kosher that the truck had previously done, hauled, it was going to be kosher bedieved . like the Shach  and all of that. But once we got our we were we were very solid with everything else, we we went into, okay, now no more of the of bedieved , whatever is, no more shailah -free. And we and now Baruch Hashem , all the transportation in America is is lechatchila mehadrin . And you could if you if you look through the history of kashrus , and I can write a book on this, how we as we grow, the klal Yisrael  and and our and our buying power has grow, we're able to do this more and more and more. And that's that's mamish  what's going on with beer. We have had the opportunity now that Baruch Hashem  to say, we we don't need to do this anymore. We don't we don't need to rely on taking beers that are problematic or at least have a shailah  to it. And therefore, let's get are we ready to get to that point where only you should use a beer that are under hashgacha , meaning the the party's under hashgacha , with hashgacha . That was the debate. Let me explain to you the problem. The problem is that if you look at the most popular beers, let's say the top 10 beers in the world, eight out of 10 of them don't have a hechsher . So how can we go ahead and put out a list and and and insist, right, that you can only have a with a hechsher  if you you kimat  can't get anything good? So what and so what happened was that this this has been the debate. And on top of that, if let's say we came out and the world and a word got out that you should only get something with a hechsher . The hashgachos say that. And you say, okay, I follow the hashgachos . And then you walk into a shalom zachar , their own rav , and he has a Heineken on the table. Heineken doesn't have a hechsher . What are we doing? Right? You understand from it there's a there's almost like a big picture chinuch aspect. Right, right. Gzeira she'efshar yachol la'amoid bo . La'amoid bo , right. When Chazal  said it, they knew there's real it's a real thing. So this was the debate. I'm talking two, three, four years, you know, really geshmak  debates in the kashrus world, in the AKO executive, what we should and should not do. And what we we discovered was that every agency has their kehilah and they they can decide for themselves. And that's what happened. At at the last AKO executive meeting, we we we the the what you mentioned, the larger East Coast hashgacha  said, you know what? We feel in the East Coast and based on the the clientele that we're servicing, we think it's time to make that turn. And v'rayo , we're not doing it, it's not a crisis. Starting whatever it is, we're going to start, we're going to make that turn, we're going to do that corner. And other agencies said, we're with you. We're not there yet. Because we cannot give a list, and if you look at the list that was given out originally, even though there were several hundred, but some of the more popular ones, if you read the the the actual the the not the fine print, but it said there things like only available in UK or Belgium. Shkoyach , but the shalom zachar  is in Lakewood. Right? And what what the chiddush  is is that the agencies felt that they could include some of the the top five popular beers based on very, very first-hand knowledge. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Included in the kosher list? Yes, even though it doesn't have a hashgacha . R’ Sholem Fishbane: So why? So and I'll tell you what they are. Heineken, Modelo, Budweiser, Stella, Corona. Why? Because it turns out that it actually we have to thank the importers for Israel. There are many these these beers that make it to Israel. So that those that go to Eretz Yisrael  have hashgachos . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: They do? R’ Sholem Fishbane: They do have hashgachos . They're they're special runs. So the agencies that are visiting those for the special runs, now are in the factories. They're saying eidus  of what's going on of what's going on in those in those major ones. And therefore even though it doesn't have a hashgacha on it, there's enough yedios  and eidus  and knowledgeable in the factory to say we're comfortable adding to the list. That's a major breakthrough. That's a major breakthrough. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And is that a new revelation? R’ Sholem Fishbane: That's a new revelation. And that that's going to be started to be included. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So therefore, but I will say also that because of that revelation, it also somewhat weakens the whole project in the sense that, okay, so now there are some beers I could use without hashgacha . Are you not concerned that now people will just kind of say that this whole awareness is kind of lacking. So I appreciate that's a very human mentality is that when you have a Torah she'b'al peh , all of a sudden the Torah she'b'ksav  falls apart. R’ Sholem Fishbane: Exactly. Great point. Great point. So if it would just be Torah she'b'al peh  that I called the company and I and I spoke to them and everything's okay, put it on the list, you're right. But this is actually much stronger because there's there's the hashgachos  are going into the factories. Uh, so therefore that's why those hashgachos  felt. But at the end of the day, you're it it is a it is a valid point and therefore they're not going to be expanding. You know, they're not they're not looking to start expanding more than this. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So it's just those five classic. And will it be publicized? Because it has not been publicized as of yet, right? Right. Just to address before you go further, the January 1st date also was technically an arbitrary date, right? Just because the start of the new secular year, but it didn't have any scientific or or kashrus  importance, that particular date, right? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Right. There was nothing nothing like like my son's theory in yeshiva , right? No, nothing. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No new laws, nothing nothing's changing as of that date. It's just that you needed a date to choose to choose to give them enough time. to give people enough time to prepare and so on. R’ Sholem Fishbane: Right. It really is an, we'll call it an American problem. Because you're saying that what? That around the world they haven't been don't play around, that craft breweries are not throwing in oysters, they're not they're not putting bacon in. I think I mentioned last time, you know, one of the our fellow um colleagues in in Boston. So he walked into a craft brewery and they were putting in pepperoni pizza into it, and they put in ham and this. That's that's like an American craft micro. And and the reason why, again, the reason why the hashgachos  felt that it was time to turn the corner is when you go shopping, it's very hard for you to actually know is this a craft brewery, is is one of the big boys. You know, it's hard to know. So, we it was just too confusing and therefore, you know, it was time to turn the corner. So I hope I'm giving somewhat of a background of what the debate was. And it's very similar, there's so many other examples. I gave the transportation, but there there's canned vegetables. You can go through the history of food and and kashrus . And and and as both we've gotten stronger and as and together with the industry changing, that the agencies had said it's time for us to become shaila -free on this as well. And that's what's going on over here. And there are there are hundreds if not thousands of ingredients that we call in the industry group-one that we still accept without a hashgacha because we know that that's just a pure type of product. Now, the other agencies that aren't there yet are not because in principle they feel this, you know, they're wrong, but it's because based on, as I said, demographics, other things, they feel that their kehillah  are, you know, in other words, if it would be a real shaila , there's nothing to talk about. We're talking about thinking about the future, when is that time to turn that corner? Shaila -free is always a good way to go. Right. There's close to 900 beers that I know about offhand that have a hashgacha . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: 900 beers? Is that right? Yeah. Have a hashgacha ? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Have a hashgacha . Wow. You know, uh, you know, all the Sam Adams, there are. There's there's that's another reason, and maybe I should have said this in the beginning, another reason why these hashgachos  said, let's turn the corner January 1st, is because there's an option. If we would do that today, let's say on scotch, there's almost nothing to drink. I mean, there's not enough good scotch or Irish whiskey that have hashgacha  yet to be able to turn the corner. But because beer had there are so many, you know, maybe there's up to a thousand, you know, whatever the number. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now if someone if someone wanted to explore that list of beer with hashgacha , where where could they look or where could they check? R’ Sholem Fishbane: So the CRC, you know, who I my day job, uh, we have a a very a full list of beer? a very, but we have we divide into three. Okay. We these agencies sent out a spreadsheet to their and you know, I'm sure it's available somewhere. Um, you know, I I don't think they're they're not releasing that. But I can tell you what we we've done. We have a very thorough liquor list. It's probably the largest in the world of researched beer, of liquor b'klal , and we divide it into three categories. Um, certified, approved, which means we did the research, and non-recommended. Okay? So someone like yourself or, you know, a yirei shamayim  or that that you I just want I just want certified. Very easy. Uh, you know, you could you can choose on our website which ones to give the whole list, just certified list, just the non-approved list, you know, whatever you want. So the options are, that would be uh, I'm not just saying because I work for the CRC, it happens to be, you know, kudos to Rabbi Niehaus who does a tremendous amount. research. And he himself, he stopped researching every time a new beer comes out. We're not researching the beers that don't have hashgacha . We feel we researched the classics, we're good to go, and Klal Yisrael should be has sufficient amount of beer to get us through at least one shalom zachar . Right, right. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Well, we appreciate you shedding light on this. I can't tell you how many questions I got about this in the last few weeks and people just want to be informed. And I'll end with this. I'm always impressed by the bikush , the desire of people to do the right thing. Time and again, I'm blown away. People come over and they come with questions with tremendous sincerity. And it's not just recommendations for topics that we should speak about here on this program. It's real questions. They want to do the right thing. So many people ask me for your number. They would love to call you day and night with questions. R’ Sholem Fishbane: And they ask me for your number. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That's just because they want to be on the program. But all jokes aside, people do want to do the right thing. They want to reach out and this program enables them to do that. So Rabbi Fishbane, thank you again for all that you do for our project and specifically for coming in today to shed light on this very important topic.  .

Kosher Breakfast Hacks So, you're on vacation and the hotel has a free continental breakfast. What can you eat? What must be avoided? Rabbi Sholom Tendler - Kashrus Administrator at the STAR-K gives us some seasoned travel hacks for our next vacation. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project and the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholom Tendler, kashrus administrator at the Star-K. Thank you Rabbi Tendler for joining us once again. R’ Sholom Tendler: Pleasure, thank you for having me back. Appreciate it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Today we'd like to discuss a very important topic, something that comes up, perhaps at one time it would have been only during the summer or only during travel season, but now people seem to be traveling all over all year round and we get inundated with questions about what people can eat, what they can't eat, they're staying at hotels, staying in hotel rooms, so on and so forth. So let's start with a basic question that we get, which is when people are staying at hotels, they want to know if they could eat from the free breakfast that's offered, the often known as the continental breakfast. Give us a little guidance as to what people may or may not eat in such a setting. R’ Sholom Tendler: Sure, popular, very common question. Just a little background and that is is that, we're not just coming over here from people calling us with questions and we deal with restaurants and things like that, so we'll answer your questions. We all travel too in the kashrus world, not just on vacation. Personally myself, I am a 1k member on United, so we're out and about, we are out there having the same situations that everyone else is and we've, as they say, been there and done that ourselves. So we've been to these continental breakfasts in the hotels and we've been able to see because we're also hungry and we want to know what's going on in there. So the first thing I would tell you is is that you really have to check, there are potentially a number of items that could be enjoyed by the kosher conscious consumer, but it's something that people really have to check into. And the reason for that is is because let's go through some of the more popular items, the bagels, the breads, the muffins. So obviously if they're prepackaged, usually in cheaper places, you could see for yourself is a hechsher  on the package or not and make your own determination. Often they're just put out in the spread, loose. In that kind of situation, you really want to ask to see the box. And don't just go over to the front desk or the lady who's setting up and say, are they kosher? And they'll say, yeah. Maybe someone was there previously and asked, maybe yeah, maybe not. At the end of the day, you have to recognize the fact that they don't keep kosher and I always like to tell people, keep in mind that the most upstanding, ehrlich  non-Jewish person has as much care about kashrus as you have for halal . That's not a political statement, but just think about it, you're not in tune to the nuances of what we're looking for. A story that just happened recently, I love saying this over is that we had an event, a waitress comes over to one of the mashgichim  and asks to borrow a phone charger. Right? And she takes the phone charger, goes over to the wall, and is about to plug it in, turns to the mashgiach  and says, can I plug it in, or you need to plug it in? Right? So you see Baruch Hashem  they're well trained, but they also have no clue what we're trying to do over here, really no clue. So that's something you have to keep in mind. When you're asking your question, you have to really confirm everything yourself. And I always like to throw it back at the people. If you would call us, I work for the Star-K, and say how do you certify that factory? Very simple. We call the factory and ask them, is it kosher? And they say yes, so we issue them a letter of certification. You'd run the other way, rightfully so. Why would you do that to yourself? Right? So ask to see the box. Maybe it's Lender's Bagels or something like that, one of the well-known brands that has a hechsher  on it. That's fine. You want to confirm that. The other thing you want to be concerned about potentially is that they a lot of times they will reheat them in an oven before they put them out loose to defrost them, reheat them to give them a little more fresh tasting, a little fresher. So the best thing would be is you could try to ask them if they reheat them. Otherwise, take a bag right out of the box, take bagels straight out of the box. Maybe it's a little bit frozen, might be a little bit defrosted. Still, that's the safest thing to do and usually they're more than happy to accommodate. I've been in many situations myself, they're they they try to accommodate guests as much as possible. You can tell them a kosher rule, don't worry, they're not going to ask too many questions and people always wonder, oh it sounds weird. I'm very self-conscious asking those questions. Like listen, in America, walk out in the streets, you're not weird, okay? It's just your religion, Baruch Hashem , we're doing it because of your yiras shamayim . Ask the question, you'll be fine, you'll get an answer. Worst case scenario, they'll say no. I've never had that happen to me before. Never. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I think that's good to hear. R’ Sholom Tendler: Never had that happen to me before and I've been in the situation many times. So that's as far as the bagels go. Moving on to other items, there's the hard-boiled eggs. We got a lot of questions about that. So first of all, hard-boiled eggs, bishul akum , right? Not for me who just learned that recently, straight up bishul akum . So there's really no heter  on that unless they're buying them already cooked, which is possible. You get commercial. With a hechsher . They come in like a big a big bucket with a hechsher  on them, and then obviously that would be okay, but you want to confirm that. The waffle maker, just stay away. I have seen so many situations with the waffle maker. They don't necessarily always use the same brand. They tell you they do. Again, same thing. Because they told you you do, you're going to rely on that. There's plenty of stuff that they put on there that might not be 100% kosher. They they re-oil it often in the kitchen as well. Just just it's not worth relying on the waffle maker. Will I tell you it's treif if you get a waffle off there because you did it already this past summer when you were traveling? I'm not going that far to say that, but again, we're talking about people that when you travel. we're yirei Shamayim , we try to do the best job possible. So this is something that in general people should be aware of. It's not so simple, you should try to stay away from it. Even the toaster oven, whether it's the pop-up toaster or the belt toaster. I have seen myself, because I've been in many hotels, what goes on in those things. First of all pop-tarts, which a lot of them are not kosher, go in the pop-up toaster, and then on the conveyor toaster, many times people are putting all kinds of things in, they're warming up their pizza from supper. I have seen this. Hot dogs, right through there. Wow. That's as far as that goes. As far as the cereals go, same thing, check the box. Most of the time it's just the regular Cheerios and Raisin Bran that they have that you'll buy, the Kellogg's or General Mills, whatever. Sometimes it's the Malt-O-Meal, all pretty much kosher, but that's something again you should confirm. Apple juices, orange juices, 100% pure juices typically are considered okay. Cranberry juice is not. Cranberry juice is very often, very often, have grape juice added as sweetener because they're very tart. So that's something you'd want to avoid unless it has a proper hashgacha  on it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: How about if they have non-dairy milk? like almond milk, things like that, oat milk. First of all, do those need a hashgacha ? R’ Sholom Tendler: They do need a hashgacha . You'd be hard pressed to find without a hashgacha  in the United States at least. But very common now, especially to someone like myself who is lactose intolerant, I'm very in tune to it. Everybody has those available, so especially for the cholov Yisroel  conscious consumers, it's something that's a big boon. And those are some, those are things that are pretty much available in many, many places. Oat milk, by the way, if you're makpid on yashan , at some point in the season would be a yashan  problem. Okay. So just keep that in mind as well. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay. How about coffee and tea and hot water in that setting? R’ Sholom Tendler: Those are those are going to be okay. Those are going to be those those machines are only used for plain coffee. They're not using anything funny or flavored or Frappuccino’s or refreshers or any kinds of things that make coffee shops potentially complicated. It's straight, simple, plain coffee which is kosher. in those things. And obviously the cheeses would have to be kosher. Very unlikely you're going to find kosher cheeses in a type of hotel situation. Yogurts as well. There are some, let's say, yogurts that have a very reliable hashgachos . You could have the same brand of yogurt that doesn't have a hashgacha  on it. There's anytime you have that, there's a reason for that. And in this kind of situation, yogurts typically contain gelatin. If it does not have a reliable hashgacha , it's almost guaranteed it contains treif gelatin in it. So that's the reason why it doesn't have a valid hashgacha on it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: As far as utensils, plates, bowls, if they don't have disposable, is there any way that you could use these items on cold and things like that? R’ Sholom Tendler: So typically cold, especially if it's derech arai , then something you could rely on, but it's not geshmak . Derech arai , I would say most poskim  would be meikel  on it, but ideally you want to just stick to disposable. If they don't have it available, bring your own. Obviously if a hotel has fresh cooked to order items, those, there's nothing to talk about, they're made in a treif  kitchen, there's nothing really you can get from such a menu. In the hotel room itself, let's move to that. So you have the coffee maker in the hotel room, whether it's a Keurig, whether it's a single serve cup. Those are pretty much okay. They don't really make treif Keurig cups anymore. They used to make soups, they don't make those anymore. If you want to be extra careful with the Keurig, you can just run it through a hot water cycle first to be extra careful. Even if they have the old-fashioned carafes, which I haven't seen in a while. The old-fashioned carafes again, I know during COVID, there was a guy that made a TikTok video how he made chicken soup in that thing. But we're not in bachurim diras  here, we're being so creative. Typically you don't have to worry about that, you could use the coffee machine in the room. Okay. The microwaves in the room, you should just double wrap everything you put in there. In two bags, doesn't have to be mamash  hermetically sealed. Any two bags would work. Even if it opens up a little bit, also it's okay. That's something you should do. Don't bother trying to kasher  the microwave unless you're experienced in kashering . Just just don't. Double wrap. Just double wrap. Safest thing to go, safest thing to do, and stick to that. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I want to go back just to one thing in the hotel. I think we we omitted, and it it comes up not only in a hotel setting but people traveling, they go to, you know, convenience stores and that is cut-up fruit. Cut-up fruit in a hotel and cut-up fruit in, you know, you go to one of these convenience gas stations, sometimes they have them packaged. Talk about the cut-up fruit for a moment. R’ Sholom Tendler: So again, so keep in mind with cut-up fruit, there are plenty of poskim , including Shulchan Aruch , that seem to say it will be okay if you don't see any treif  residue on there. You could assume that there was bittel  by the time the knives were finished cutting all the fruit. And there's certainly merit to that, not that it needs my haskama to say that. At the end of the day though, just knowing what goes on in kitchens, it just does make me personally feel a little uncomfortable knowing that this was cut literally side by side with treif . And that is what goes on, by the way. That is what goes on. Supermarkets may be a little bit better because they tend to have vegetable departments, but I've seen it myself. Not always. I've been in one supermarket where just because of space constraints, they moved the vegetable check vegetable cutting and fruit cutting into the meat room, because again, there's no allergen concerns. They couldn't move into the fish, they move into the meat room. Did not make me so comfortable looking at that kind of a setup. Then you have places, let's say like Wegmans, where they have you can see in front of you a separate fruit and vegetable cutting department. So that really there's no problem with. And that you could do. The other thing that I'd like to mention also is that especially when you're traveling. traveling, packaged fruit that you find in places that don't have a place area to cut up food. 7-Eleven, Sunoco's, Jersey Turnpike stores, they have cut up mangoes and cut up apples and things like that, 100% kosher l'mehadrin , even without a hashgacha . Those will come from companies that just package fruit and vegetables all day long. It's all they do. And really no problem at all. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You know where I've actually seen it? I'm curious. Very often in Manhattan, you'll find on the corner, on the corner you'll see like these little fruit shops under a little umbrella, and very often they're selling cut up fruit there. Now, I would never buy it just because my my my kashrus antenna goes up. I don't feel comfortable. R’ Sholom Tendler: I mean that guy brought those knives from his house. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah, I don't know, right, exactly. I don't know how comfortable I would be, some guy selling it on the corner. But you're saying when you're buying it in a store, very often it's it's being produced commercially or most of the time. R’ Sholom Tendler: If the store doesn't have a place to cut fruit and vegetables, like a Sunoco station, 7-Eleven, they're getting it from a company that makes fruits and vegetables and that is 100% kosher l'mehadrin . There's no problem at all. Thank you so much.

“The kiddush will be held in Rabbi Cohen’s shul, so I’m sure everything is fine.” Although Rabbi Cohen is the Mara d’Asra, there is a good chance he is uninvolved in the kashrus of the simchah hall associated with the shul. For several years, Rabbi Sholem Yehudah Fishbane, executive director of Association of Kashrus Organizations (AKO) and kashrus administrator for Chicago Rabbinical Council (cRc), has been working with his associates to develop a protocol for shuls to ensure acceptable hashgachah in their simchah halls. There are vast lifestyle discrepancies between members of shuls spread throughout the country. Because of this, coupled with the complexities of assigning responsibility for kashrus supervision, it took time for the AKO Shul Initiative to gain traction. Finally, the volunteers’ long, hard work has come to fruition, with the completion of a template for shuls to develop customized kashrus guidelines, which they can then implement to upgrade the standards in their kitchens. Rabbi Sholem Yehudah Fishbane by Rabbi Binyomin Zev Karman 18 July 2, 2025 “Over the years, we have discovered that although the standards of kashrus supervision in general have improved exponentially, there are three areas, namely summer camps, shuls and yeshivos, where improvement is warranted,” Rabbi Fishbane says. “The shul, which is the bedrock of the Jewish community, has been overlooked when it comes to hashgachah; kashrus professionals have banded together to offer their services free of charge to promote the necessary upgrades in this area.” In the first part of this series (“Keeping Camp Kitchens Kosher,” Parashas Shelach/June 18), Inyan explored the efforts of dedicated kashrus professionals to inspect camp kitchens and suggest improvements. In the second installment, Inyan examines the challenges related to shul kitchens and strategies for implementing higher standards of kashrus. Sample of a letter to be sent to a ba’al simchah informing of the hashgachah standards of the shul and simchah hall. 19 Rabbi Sholey Klein, kashrus administrator, ORB Kosher In the late 1950s, Harav Leib Malin, zt”l, Rosh Yeshivah of Beis Hatalmud, spent some time at Zucker’s Glen Wild Hotel during bein hazmanim. One day, Mr. Shmuel Zucker found Rav Leib wandering through the pantry and kitchen, inspecting the various ingredients on the shelves. When questioned by Mr. Zucker, Rav Leib explained that if people saw him eating in the hotel dining room, they probably assumed that he had checked out the establishment’s kashrus, and they were relying on him to ensure the food met the highest level of kashrus. “I feel an achrayus (responsibility) to check things out for myself so that people relying on me have what to rely on,” he explained. Although Mrs. Zucker prepared special vegetables for Rav Leib, according to his strict criteria, the Rosh Yeshivah wanted to make sure that the entire operation was up to the highest standards so as not to inadvertently mislead people. Indeed, he even traveled to Woodbourne and checked out the bakery from which the hotel purchased their bread and challos. “Some Rabbanim are under the impression that their job is limited to the beis haknesses, delivering shiurim and paskening she’eilos,” Rabbi Sholey Klein, the kashrus administrator of Orthodox Rabbinical Board (ORB) of Broward and Palm Beach Counties Florida (Boca) and a leading member of the AKO Shul Initiative committee says. “They are not necessarily aware if an affair is held in the simchah hall of their shul; 20 people presume that the Rav has signed off on its kashrus. One of the major concepts we have been working on is to establish a protocol for standards of kashrus, under the auspices of each shul’s Rav.” Rabbi Fishbane elaborates on the reasons Rabbanim are often uninvolved in the supervision of their shuls’ kitchens. “I served as a Rav for several years, and I can testify that a Rav’s time is consumed with his pastoral duties. This includes not only delivering shiurim and drashos but also visiting hospitals, being involved in shalom bayis and helping congregants with other family issues. Besides the time he spends, these duties are draining, leaving less energy for him to devote to areas not directly under his purview. “There are other factors that divert a Rav from getting involved in his shul’s kitchen: “Some do not understand the seriousness of the pitfalls, relying on the religious integrity of his kehillah to make sure everything is in order. While the members may be reliable people, the hazards of a kitchen inevitably raise concerns, and someone must accept responsibility for it. “Others, who may see the need for greater supervision, shy away from taking this on. ‘I can undertake only one or two battles with my baalei batim per year, and I do not want to pick a fight with their stomachs,’ one Rav quipped. “Furthermore, a Rav who is an employee of a board of directors may prefer to steer clear of taking on the board over this matter. “Finally, there are some Rabbanim who feel that if they cannot bring the supervision of kashrus up to perfection, they are unwilling to work on a partial upgrade. In the famous words of Winston Churchhill, ‘Perfection is the enemy of progress.’” As part of the Kashrus Awareness campaign, having taken guidance from AKO, Rabbi Fishbane focused on one locale, working with some 30 shuls in attempting to develop a minimum standard of supervision in their kitchens. “When we investigated what was taking place before we began, we discovered that many venues allowed caterers to bring in equipment they had rented from other establishments. Not only was there a problem of mixing milchigs and fleishigs, we actually found some who were renting equipment from nonkosher establishments!” Rabbi Fishbane reports. “In addition, unchecked produce was brought in, non-mevushal wines were used, despite having gentile waiters serving at the event, and homemade foods were served without any supervision. Amira l’akum, having non-Jewish workers perform prohibited work on Shabbos, was rampant. In many cases, while the Rav of the shul was an expert in Halachah, he was not a kashrus professional and was not attuned to what needs to be done in a commercial kitchen. “When we enter a kitchen, our antennas are up, looking for things that a non-professional would not take note of. We’ve seen these things dozens of times in the past, and we have solutions for them. Having a kashrus professional inspect a venue and offer his advice as to improving the supervision is essential. And once again, as with the camps, we are offering this service without charge,” Rabbi Fishbane stresses. Amira l’akum, having non-Jewish workers perform prohibited work on Shabbos, was rampant. In many cases, while the Rav of the shul was an expert in Halachah, he was not a kashrus professional and was not attuned to what needs to be done in a commercial kitchen. 21 July 2, 2025 6 Tammuz 5785 “Our objective is to set the shul up for success. we offer advice—not criticism.” In September 2023, AKO’s shul ommittee held a meeting in the offices of the Kof-K, where representatives of Agudath Israel, the Orthodox Union (OU), Young Israel, Hisachdus Harabbanim (CRC), Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) and representatives of Lakewood Rabbanim got together to plan a strategy for tackling this problem. Several ideas were forwarded to bring awareness to this issue, including establishing a template from which shuls could develop their individual kashrus standards. In addition, AKO kashrus professionals would make themselves available to be scholars-in-residence at shuls for a Shabbos shel kashrus, which would help educate and excite people about kashrus. A free consultation and assessment of the shul kitchen would be offered as well as assistance in implementing customized guidelines for each shul. “A bonus of a Rav and a shul establishing their 22 own guidelines with AKO’s assistance is that the Rav or people in charge can deflect much of the possible complaints and criticism,” Rabbi Fishbane explains. “They can now say, ‘I’d love to allow Tante Celia’s chalupchus to be served, but we have adopted the AKO guidelines, which precludes serving homemade foods.’” Another aspect of the program is involving the women of the shul. Many simchos are planned by the women; having them on board is a tremendous advantage. To accomplish this, AKO arranges a separate meeting for the n’shei of the shul to explain the need for the standards as well as to get their buy in and incorporate their suggestions. In preparation for an inspection, the Rav is presented with a questionnaire that includes 86 issues that could come up in a shul kitchen on which he must rule. Once that is completed, AKO asks the Rav to designate two shul members to be responsible for kashrus, assigning them appropriate, respectable titles. These appointees will be trained based on the Rav’s psakim, which will facilitate proper management of any guidelines. In the event that a new kitchen is being built, AKO will help design it, hardwiring the milchige/ f leishige work areas and other protection needed to ensure a high standard of kashrus. “We also try convincing the board to include responsibility for the kitchen’s kashrus in the Rav’s contract,” Rabbi Fishbane continues. “This is critical to maintaining the kashrus standards. Some Rabbanim may say, ‘I am Rav of the shul; what do I have to do with an outsider renting the hall for a vort?’ This is false, because when a person hears there is a simchah at Rabbi Friedman’s shul, he assumes Rabbi Friedman is in charge of the kashrus. We also recommend the Rav put on a proverbial apron to show that he takes his shul’s kashrus seriously. This will include occasional drop-ins to see that his guidelines are being followed.” To tackle the difficulty of tailoring a system for shuls in different locales and with different clienteles, AKO initiated what they refer to as the “five shul system” — it helped create a template that other shuls can follow and modify as they develop their own unique guidelines. Rabbi Nesanel Snow, kashrus administrator of Rabbinical Council of Bergen County (RCBC) Kosher Supervision based in Teaneck, New Jersey, is one of the leaders of the AKO Shul Initiative and explained the “five shul concept.” “One of the challenges we faced is that shuls are in different locales with diverse memberships; there is no one-size-fits-all template. It was important for us to get a sense of the disparity of the shuls and communities. For example, we can have a small shtiebel where everyone is comfortable eating at each other’s homes, versus a large shul with a catering hall. The variables are many, as opposed to restaurants, where basically all high-end meat eateries are more or less alike. “We began a pilot program in six communities around the country in which we had a kashrus professional introduce the program to five shuls in their area and get feedback. After many months of pushing, we succeeded in several communities. We began with the questionnaire to ascertain what works and then discussed and created guidelines. This helped develop buy-in from the shuls, as Rabbi Nesanel Snow presenting to the Rabbanim at the Agudah Convention about AKO’s new Shul Kitchen Kashrus Initiative  they felt we were developing it with them. The Rav would decide what position he had on certain issues and then we went over the guidelines line by line, modifying, inserting or omitting as necessary. Finally, we put the shul’s name on it, and they were ready to go. “To date, we have worked with 30 shuls to develop customized guidelines. Another nine shuls joined the program when we presented it at the Agudath Israel Convention in November 2024. With the template we created based on the five shul initiative, we are now equipped with a tool we can adapt for other shuls and implement on a national scale. “At times, we sense that some of the frummer “To date, we have worked with 30 shuls to develop customized guidelines.” 23 July 2, 2025 12 Adar 5785 shuls feel self-conscious about revisiting their kashrus standards,” Rabbi Klein shares, “but we are not looking to embarrass anyone. Our objective is to set the shul up for success; we offer advice—not criticism. “We will provide a shul with a standard operating procedure (SOP) for free, but the Rav and the members must realize that it is their responsibility to ensure quality kashrus in their shul’s kitchen; they need to step it up. We will be there to provide the know-how, but we cannot be there to push things through. Ultimately, it is up to the shul and the Rav to take ownership of their kashrus responsibilities.” Shuls who would like to take advantage of the AKO Shul Initiative should contact them via email at shuls@akokosher.org . Rabbi Yosef Eisen, Rav of Kollel Bnei Torah in Brooklyn and Rabbinic Administrator of the Vaad of The Five Towns and Far Rockaway. Rabbi Yosef Eisen, Rav of Kollel Bnei Torah in Brooklyn, has been a leading voice in the field of kashrus for decades. He served as a rabbinic administrator for the Orthodox Union (OU) and is currently the rabbinic administrator of the Vaad of The Five Towns and Far Rockaway. “When approached by Rabbi Fishbane to work with the shuls in Flatbush, I understood that the neighborhood had its own unique set of concerns that had to be satisfied for the project to be successful,” Rabbi Eisen says. “Flatbush has numerous shuls, several of which have simchah halls associated with them. The population of the neighborhood includes many people who are vigilant with their kashrus. We felt we had to aim for a high level that would be acceptable to all.” Although the Rabbanim are extremely busy with kehillah functions, their support for the project was overwhelming. “The Rabbanim spearheaded the campaign; they enlisted the help of trustworthy, dedicated baalei battim who undertook to work with us to create and implement the guidelines,” Rabbi Eisen says. “They are enthusiastic about upgrading and safeguarding the kashrus of their shuls and simchah halls. We successfully launched what we expect to become the accepted standard in all the neighborhood shuls.

Keeping the Kitchens Kosher “It was learned in the Beis Medrash of Rabi Yishmael: Sin obstructs the heart of man, as it is written, ‘V’lo sitamu bahem, v’nitmeisem bam — Do not defile yourself with them lest you become defiled through them’ (Vayikra 11:43). Do not read it ‘v’nitmeisem,’ but rather [read it] ‘v’nitamtem — and you will become obstructed’” (Yoma 39a). The Ramban and others explain that this is mainly referring to the prohibition of eating forbidden foods, which will result in a spiritual clogging of the mind and prevent the person from gaining a clear understanding of Torah. Stories are told of how children who consumed forbidden food struggled in their limud haTorah. The impurity that results from the forbidden food ultimately blocks the mind from grasping the profundity of the holy Torah (Rashi ibid.). While over the past three quarters of a century, a high level of kashrus has been attained in many circles, there remain some areas where improvement is warranted. In previous installments, Inyan reported on initiatives to enhance the kashrus in summer camps and shuls. With the new school year just around the corner, Inyan concentrates on a third area — our precious children’s educational institutions. They, too, are striving to upgrade the hashgachah in their kitchens to ensure that the food entering our children’s mouths remains untainted, and what still needs to be done to safeguard the purity of our future generations. 26 Av 5785 13 The blue milchige trays. Keeping the Mind Clear “While the words of Chazal must surely be taken at face value, I recently heard a story that proves the point about tumah directly affecting one’s spiritual level,” Rabbi Sholem Yehuda Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator of the Chicago Rabbinical Council (cRc) and Executive Director of Association Kashrus Organizations (AKO) shares as we begin our discussion concerning kashrus in yeshivah and Bais Yaakov kitchens. “At the shivah for Harav Yechezkel Munk, zt”l, a longtime Maggid Shiur in the mechinah of Telshe Yeshiva, his children related a story. Their father had verified its veracity. “‘A certain Jew had, lo aleinu, converted to Catholicism and became a priest. He remained uncomfortable in his new position, bothered constantly by guilt,’ Rabbi Munk’s son related to those who came to be menachem the family. ‘When this priest consulted with his superior, who had also abandoned his Jewish faith, the superior told him that he had experienced the same feelings and had discovered a simple solution. “For 30 days, each morning, you should wash negel vasser, and then drink the water,” the bishop said. “The tumah of the water will destroy any vestige of connection to Yiddishkeit and kedushah, and you will no longer feel any guilt for your transgressions.”’ “If Chazal say that eating nonkosher food is metamtem the lev, then we certainly must be extra vigilant regarding what we feed our children in their younger years, while they are receiving their chinuch,” Rabbi Fishbane noted. The Unattended-To Problem “Unfortunately, there is sort of a built-in trap that has prevented this area from receiving the attention it deserves,” Rabbi Fishbane expounds. “The Gemara in Bava Basra (24b) uses an expression ‘kidra d’vei shutfi lo chamimi v’lo keriri, a pot that belongs to partners is neither hot nor cold.’ It basically means that when there are numerous people involved, no one takes achrayus, responsibility, to make sure things get done. In our situation, when there are many ehrlicher members on the staff and in the administration, each individual may think that surely someone undertook to arrange proper supervision of the kitchen and dining room. Unfortunately, it falls through the cracks.” To rectify the situation, Rabbi Fishbane strongly recommends that every mossed have someone specifically assigned to be responsible for the supervision of food. Rabbi Sholem Yehuda Fishbane “Otherwise,” Rabbi Fishbane laments, “no one takes care of it and it does not happen. Unfortunately, a restaurant owned by nonreligious Jews or even gentiles that has a strict hashgachah may have a better system than a yeshivah which has not implemented one.” The Necessary Rectification “Forward-thinking Roshei Yeshivah understand that they must appoint one or two staff members to study both the halachos and the practical aspects of kashrus. This involves connecting them with someone in the field of kashrus supervision who has hands-on experience in overseeing commercial kitchens. Such a professional will pick up on everything that might go wrong in the setup of the kitchen and will suggest ways to implement improvements. Finally, it is important to compensate these staff members, so that they will take their responsibilities seriously and ensure that the system is adhered to. “In Chicago, where I live during the year between trips for my work, Harav Shmuel Yehudah Levin, zt”l, the Rosh Yeshivah of Telshe-Chicago, would constantly contact me about various details of the yeshivah kitchen. He understood very well the importance of having a system and following it.” Is It As Kosher As a Restaurant? Rabbi Chaim Tuvia Hanson, Executive Kashrus Administrator of the Vaad Harabonim of Queens, repeats an interesting idea a Rosh Yeshivah in New York shared with him. One of the most common problems in yeshivos is that too many people have access to the kitchen. The red f leishige pots. 14 “I often speak with my talmidim about avoiding restaurants. I feel that generally, they aren’t places where yeshivah bachurim should hang around,” the Rosh Yeshivah said. “However, I thought, If I demand that they eat the food we provide for them in yeshivah, isn’t it incumbent on me to make sure that the food I serve is at least as kosher as the food I am telling them to avoid? I realized that the standards in my own yeshivah kitchen, which serves my bachurim three meals a day, day in and day out, may be lower than those of a restaurant. The yeshivah kitchen must be, at the very least, as structured and as kosher as a restaurant.” Rabbi Hanson tells how he entered that yeshivah’s kitchen, sat there for about two hours and compiled a list of some 30 items in need of improvement — some minor and some major. “I identified most of these things only because I’m experienced in the field, and we have come across them numerous times in the past.” The List Rabbi Chaim Tuvia Hanson One of the most common problems in yeshivos is that too many people have access to the kitchen. “Truthfully, no one not working in the kitchen belongs there; that includes Rebbeim and bachurim alike,” Rabbi Hanson emphasizes. “Even the workers should never have keys to the kitchen. When the setup is structured properly, there is no need for any worker, whether an assistant cook or even a janitor, to have a key. They can come in and clean while the kitchen is open for food preparation, or the yeshivah can pay a trustworthy bachur some pocket money to be there when there is a need. In restaurants, it is unheard of for the staff to enter the premises before the mashgiach opens the doors for them.” Another area of concern is the intermingling of milchigs and fleishigs. “Almost every restaurant is exclusively one or the other. Having both raises the risk of mixing them up,” Rabbi Hanson says. “While caterers sometimes prepare both, they only serve one at a time. In some yeshivos, milchigs and f leishigs are offered at the same meal, and the talmidim have a choice. They may be served from different ends of the kitchen, and one side of the dining room may have tablecloths for fleishigs and the other side for milchigs. But it is insufficient. We know bachurim. While Reuven may prefer fleishigs, his buddy Shimon wants milchigs. Although they took their food separately, they want to shmooze during their meal. So Shimon pushes aside the tablecloth that was 15 August 20, 2025 26 Av 5785 placed there for fleishigs and puts his plate with the milchigs on the table itself. This is a disaster waiting to happen. “I visited a yeshivah kitchen, which, in addition to milchige and fleishige sections, had a section for pareve. I begged them to do away with the pareve, because inevitably the pareve pots were washed in the milchige sink, causing a problem that should be avoided by having only milchigs or fleishigs.” In a Bais Yaakov he visited, Rabbi Hanson was told that the kitchen used by the school was also used by the caterer who rented the hall. “The gentile who worked for the caterer had the keys, so he could let in the workers who took care of the kiddush on Shabbos. That itself was a major problem,” he relates. “Even when we were there, a delivery came into the kitchen for the school, and nothing was sealed. It seems that there are some schools that pool resources and order their food from one central provider, which then delivers it to the individual schools through a car service. This requires the food to be sealed. This was not happening, and the food was the type that needs simanim if sent with a non-Jew. It is also used by the local shul for their kiddush on Shabbos. Both fleishigs and milchigs are prepared in a relatively small space. That is more common in a small city where you have a shared kitchen. On the other hand, because it is part of a small local community, many of the students are the children of the Rebbeim and Menahalim. This makes it more personal for them and gives them both the time and opportunity to be actively involved in the kitchen — especially with everything located so close together. Cameras strategically placed to help keep an eye on things. Shteiging in Kashrus as Well Rabbi Don Kenan “For some reason, the yeshivos and Bais Yaakov schools slip through the cracks. While the general public has raised the level of kashrus, and people are quite vigilant in seeking out a proper hashgachah, the lack of supervision in some yeshivos needs to be addressed.” Rabbi Hanson deferentially says that these Roshei Yeshivah would be able to grasp in a month or two what it took him 10 years to learn. However, without hands-on experience in a commercial kitchen, it is most likely that despite their halachic knowledge, they would not pick up on the potential problems and the best solutions that a kashrus professional can offer them. Small Town With Big Challenges While Rabbi Hanson focuses mainly on yeshivos and Bais Yaakov schools in a big city like New York, Rabbi Don Kenan, Kashrut Administrator of Hartford Kashrut Commission, deals with schools in a small setting, which presents its own set of challenges. “In some ways, it’s better, and in some ways, it’s worse,” Rabbi Kenan says. “The kitchen I am involved with cooks for approximately 200 children per day, serving in the Cheder, Mesivta and in catering halls. “In this yeshivah located in a nearby town, the workers are all non-Jewish, and the bachurim help supervise the kashrus. As an example, one bachur was responsible to come each morning at 7 to light the pilots and the ovens to avoid problems with bishul akum. Lo and behold, when I davened with the baalei battim at the early minyan, they told me that that there were occasions when the bachur was not around on time, and the kitchen workers drafted one of the mispallelim to light the fires. Although this technically takes care of the problem, the concern is that if the workers become comfortable asking someone other than the mashgiach to light the fires — and the mashgiach, in turn, trusts their word that they did so — it opens the door to a dangerous possibility. One day, if the mashgiach is running late, and the workers are pressed with many tasks, they might decide to light the fires themselves and simply claim they asked someone else. They must have a sense of mirasas (awe and fear of being caught) and follow clear, established systems. Without this, it can quickly become a slippery slope.” Another problem of sharing a kitchen with the community is the lack of coordination between the two groups. “The shul uses the kitchen to keep their cholent warm for the kiddush,” Rabbi Kenan mentions, “but they were warming their fleishige cholent on the side that the school used for milchigs. Although they tried to be careful, the Menahel told me that often on Shabbos, they had problems like milchige trays being used to transport Over three decades ago, Harav Yisroel Belsky, zt”l, Rosh Yeshivah in Torah Vodaas, who was also involved in kashrus certification, instituted a hashgachah system in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas. It was an idea ahead of its time. He recruited Rabbi Yoni Levinson, then a yungerman in the kollel, to act as mashgiach for the yeshivah’s kitchen. Rabbi Levinson would check all incoming deliveries to ensure the products were up to standard and drop in as necessary to make sure the standards were upheld. “As time went on, under the guidance of the Roshei Yeshivah, Harav Yisroel Reisman, shlita, and Harav Yitzchak Lichtenstein, shlita, we upgraded the level of supervision,” Rabbi Yitzchak Gottdiener, executive director of the yeshivah, says. “We now pay someone who arrives early in the morning to be there before the kitchen opens and remains there until the cook arrives. In addition, we installed cameras to help keep an eye on what is transpiring at all times. Someone spot checks throughout the day. We implemented a system where all products and utensils are under lock and key. The outlay for the extra supervision is substantial, but we feel that a makom Torah, which caters to bnei Torah, requires the highest standard of kashrus. “This standard is kept up during the summer months as well, and the new camp Torah Vodaas where our bachurim spend the summer months maintains the same high level of supervision.” August 20, 2025 f leishige food out to the kiddush!” To their credit, even before the yeshivah employed Rabbi Kenan to set up the system for their kitchen, the yeshivah did consult with a kashrus professional and instituted several guidelines: They minimized the use of leafy vegetables; they had someone whose task it was to light the fires; and they installed cameras in the kitchen to observe what was going on there. “However, because the staff are constantly busy, they preferred to hire someone to take full charge. They understood that there’s a big difference between having a general kashrus system and having a local kashrus authority to provide professional oversight,” Rabbi Kenan says. Certification vs Guidance While not every school has the financial ability to hire a mashgiach, it is still important for them to consult with a kashrus professional to set up proper protocols and standards. “Having kashrus certification requires everything to be fully set up and perfect. Ideally, when someone walks into a restaurant, they can rely 100% on the certifying agency for every aspect of the kashrus with many details and inspections taken into account,” Rabbi Kenan points out. “Not every school has the ability to take on that expense. Nevertheless, it is vital to seek out professional kashrus guidance… A yeshiva kitchen might not qualify for certification — for example, if it regularly produces both milchigs and fleishigs, it’s very hard and rare to be kosher-certified — but it can still maintain solid kashrus standards. “Because yeshivos operate on a larger scale, along with changing staff and schedules and frequent events, this type of guidance is crucial even without official kashrus certification. It helps establish clear protocols, such as proper vegetable checking procedures, and a sense of accountability for the staff.” Raising Awareness “At the AKO, besides facilitating cooperation and interaction between the many kashrus agencies, we also constantly work to increase public awareness of kashrus vigilance,” Rabbi Fishbane tells Inyan. “So far, the feedback regarding this summer’s information campaign shows that it has already resulted in heightened awareness. It’s bolstered the public’s desire to raise the level of supervision in camps and shul. We stand ready to help yeshivos as well. We are confident that here, too, the olam will respond positively, allowing the yeshivos to maximize the harbotzas haTorah of the pure minds and neshamos of our most precious commodity: our children.” 

Over 1,000 meals are served daily in the average Jewish summer camp. For two months, breakfast, lunch and supper are cooked, baked and doled out for campers, staff and their families. The menu includes milchigs, fleishigs and pareve. “Even the busiest restaurant or caterer rarely faces an operation as complex as running a summer camp,” says Rabbi Sholom Chaim Tendler of Star-K. “The sheer volume of food, with changes from a dairy breakfast to a meat supper, is daunting. Keeping the foods and equipment separate in the limited confines of a camp kitchen is extremely difficult. “Although the chef is experienced and mindful of the need to be vigilant, the kitchen staff are often untrained local non-Jews. They may be unfamiliar with or indifferent to the laws of kashrus. Think about it this way — even if the worker has picked up Yiddish and seems knowledgeable, it’s not reasonable to expect him to have the same respect for kashrus as we do. They rationalize, especially under stress. Even the young Jewish teenagers who assist in the kitchen may be less than ideal to safeguard the integrity of the operation. They are not trained to understand commercial kitchens; you cannot expect better from them, and if you do, you are fooling yourself. “Kosher certification has come a long way over the past few decades. The many certifying organizations work hand in hand to raise the level of oversight for kosher consumers,” adds Rabbi Moshe Kaufman of KVH Kosher of Boston. “In our never ending quest to promote the highest level of kashrus, we realized that the kitchens of many Jewish summer camps were neglected. Our committee set out to encourage greater supervision of these sites; all this is done l’shem Shamayim, totally free of charge.” 14 15 22 Sivan 5785 June 18, 2025 Rabbi Moshe Kaufman inspecting the ovens to ensure bishul Yisrael and Shabbos compliance at Camp Ma’ayan Midwest. Discerning the Concern “A few years ago, as I prepared to send my daughter to sleepaway camp for the first time, there was some chatter on a group chat of kashrus professionals. Someone brought up the question of the kashrus in the camp kitchens,” Rabbi Kaufman begins. “We were surprised that no one in the group knew anything about it. We realized that this area was completely overlooked.” Rabbi Sholem Yehudah Fishbane, Director of Kashrus for the Chicago Rabbinical Council (cRc) and Executive Director of Association of Kashrus Organizations (AKO) asked Rabbi Kaufman and Rabbi Tendler if they would chair a committee of kashrus professionals dedicated to improving this matter. “Initially, we had no idea what would happen, as this was an uncharted field,” Rabbi Kaufman says. “At the onset, many mashgichim volunteered their time and expertise to this project, but in a practical sense, it was not always workable. The devoted mashgichim are spread over the country, while Jewish camps are concentrated in the Catskills, upstate New York in the Albany area, and the Poconos in Pennsylvania with a few in the Midwest. We soon came to realize that despite their good intentions, not all the volunteers were suitable. In addition, we determined that special skills were needed. A mashgiach who only had experience supervising factories was insufficient. This initiative required experience in the field of food service, meaning supervision of caterers, restaurants or stores with the bustle of chefs, waiters and the like. Rabbi Sholem Yehudah Fishbane of the AKO. Checkup Without the Check committee helps the camp develop one. “We do not approve or disapprove of any camp’s ingredients or policies. We make recommendations how to set up the kitchen in regard to milchigs, fleishigs and Shabbos. In addition, there must be a system of checking deliveries to make sure that the foods received are the ones that were ordered,” Rabbi Kaufman explains. “All too often, a supplier runs short of an item and substitutes another item for it. Buying from a heimishe distributor does not guarantee that every item in his stock is acceptable. Many such distributors carry nonkosher items as well. Mistakes happen, and there must be a system of oversight. We know of cases when treife chicken, nonkosher cheese and treife sauces were mistakenly delivered to frum camps and unfortunately used. In other cases, liquid eggs were ordered, and the item that arrived contained non-chalav Yisrael milk derivatives. Other times, the forbidden items were unchecked vegetables or Israeli produce with issues related to Shemittah, terumos or maasros. All too often, the camp owner, head counselor, chef and kitchen manager all look at each other, expecting someone else to take responsibility. In the meantime, no one is doing so. So, it is vital that someone be designated to supervise intake.” “Today, we have five active members. Rabbi Fishbane of AKO monitors our activities. We began by reaching out to camp directors with whom we had a personal connection and offering to check out their kitchens for free. We then sent letters to all camp directors, informing them of the availability of our service. The response was 100% positive. However, it was already past Pesach, and the camp directors were extremely busy preparing to open their facilities; scheduling inspections proved difficult. As a result, our f irst season was limited to half a dozen visits. Later we presented at The Association of Jewish Camp Operators (AJCO) Camp Expo & Conference in the Meadowlands. The project snowballed each subsequent year, with a lot of camps reaching out to us.” 16 “Our service is free not only ostensibly. Unlike those deals that offer a free item but add a shipping-and-handling fee or some hook to get you to pay for other items, we have no hidden agenda. Our only goal is to improve the kashrus of the hundreds of thousands of meals served each summer,” Rabbi Tendler states. “There is no hook to get the camp to sign a hashgachah contract with us. We do not even want to give hashgachos to the camps. We are only interested in reviewing the operation and offering suggestions on how to improve it from the standpoints of kashrus and shemiras Shabbos.” “Members of the committee invest their own time, money and energy to provide this service. There is absolutely no funding solicited,” Rabbi Kaufman adds. “At times, our own vaadim, who have a vested interest in improving the level of kashrus in Klal Yisrael, will cover the costs, but the rest of the expenses come out of our dedicated mashgichim’s pockets. In addition, they receive no prestige for what they do, as there is no gathering where they get publicity on stage.” Preparing a Plan The goal of the committee is not to offer certification but rather to ensure that each camp has a kashrus plan in place, including someone charged with overseeing that it is properly implemented. In the absence of such a plan, the June 18, 2025 “In many cases, we felt that no one was manning the ship... A teacher called me from a camp. She erroneously believed the camp was under our hashgachah.” Rabbi Moshe Kaufman, Kashrus Administrator, KVH Kashrus. While some camps may be resistant to hiring a mashgiach, Rabbi Kaufman suggests that often there are people on grounds who can take responsibility. “A staff member may have a spouse learning on grounds who can take achrayus for certain aspects. He might be able to check invoices to verify that what you are getting is what you asked for. In high-end restaurants, someone verifies that the restaurant received exactly what was ordered. In camps as well, everything must be checked before it is accepted for use.” As the committee’s work commenced, they developed a formalized online inspection form, which was designed to cover all areas of the kitchen. “Problems that pop up are quite surprising, Rabbi Fishbane relates. “In many cases, we felt that no one was manning the ship. As an example, a teacher called me from a camp where her school was holding a Shabbaton. She erroneously believed the camp was under our hashgachah. It was owned by a 22 Sivan 5785 17 Kashering a pizza oven at a camp. frum person, but she had been met at the kitchen by the gentile caretaker. He handed her the key to the kitchen and told her, ‘I can’t open the kitchen, so here’s the key. You must open up, but give it right back to me.’ He showed her around the kitchen. When she asked, ‘Who is the mashgiach?’ the answer she got was, ‘You are!’ “I called the camp director and asked, ‘What’s the plan?’ A system in which you tell the gentile that he can’t open the kitchen, but he has the keys is not a plan!” Rabbi Sholom Chaim Tendler detailing exactly what must be done each day,” Rabbi Tendler explained. “This includes lighting the pilot lights and the fires on the stoves and f iring up the ovens. We customize the list for each location.” Mix-ups and Math “This is the most widespread issue we come across,” Rabbi Kaufman chimes in. “Anecdotally, in many camps a non-Jewish caretaker has access to the kitchen. At some of these camps, even if they are set up well during the season, there is hefkeirus during the off season. Because of this issue, one camp kashers their entire kitchen before each season. But that’s an anomaly.” “One of the most important suggestions we make to camps is to have a checklist of the staff’s daily routines, “When we do certification inspections, we likewise have a checklist. Afterwards, there is an inspection report to record that each step was carried out. When I visited one sight, I forgot to download the inspection list. When I arrived, there was no internet service, so I went through it by heart. As I was leaving the camp, I realized that I had left out two things, and I had to return to check them out,” Rabbi Kaufman recalls. “This shows the importance of the lists and reports even for an experienced mashgiach and certainly for untrained kitchen help.” Properly marked kitchen equipment. “Another common problem we encounter is that the milchige and fleishige equipment are mixed up or not marked properly,” says Rabbi Fishbane. “Often the people responsible for storing the serving spoons and pitchers are teenagers, and sometimes they do not exercise the proper care.” “At one site, the milchige and fleishige preparation areas were in pretty good shape. But the only spot where they could place the milchige oven was on the fleishige side,” Rabbi Tendler recounts. “Of course, they were careful not to mix up the ovens. But this was inviting problems, as pans could be removed from the oven and placed on the fleishige counter.” “A common refrain is, ‘I control my kitchen at home very well. I know what I’m doing,’” Rabbi Fishbane 18 relates. “But at home, you are not preparing hundreds of meals. The problem is the math, not the intent. Often, frum owners and chefs consider it an affront that we are looking over their shoulders. We have to be sensitive to this, yet we must also convey the importance of the system.” “Another thing we often hear is, ‘We don’t make mistakes,’” Rabbi Kaufman puts in. “But I would compare a camp kitchen to a Pesach hotel. Would you say, ‘We have a frum chef, we don’t need mashgichim?’” At times, the chef or kitchen manager may be unaware of the implications of a particular habit of theirs. “At one site, we observed the chef placing a pan of macaroni and cheese in an electric buffet to keep it warm until serving it. The piece of equipment was a basin filled with water with an element to heat the water. The chef put a large hotel roaster pan of macaroni into it. I said, ‘I don’t see it marked milchig or fleishig.’ “The chef answered that they used the same one for both milchigs and fleishigs. He defended this practice with the halachic concept of nat bar nat, which basically relies on the absorption of taam (taste) being secondary without any b’ein (physical pieces of food). I countered that the Chavas Daas prohibits this during the cooking process, but even if you rely on the opinion of the matirim, it would only be permissible if there was no b’ein. I proceeded to fish out a piece of spiral rotini (macaroni) and cheese floating in the hot water. “I then asked what his setup on Shabbos was. He told me, ‘I guess they serve the food straight out of the oven without using the buffet.’ The gentile worker corrected him, saying, ‘No. We plug it in for them.’ The chef tried to claim that it was only chazarah (returning a cooked item to a heat source), but we pointed out that the gentile was heating the water in the basin, so it was amirah l’akum for a d’Oraysa. “We questioned the chef on whether, in the seven years of the camp’s existence, anyone had ever asked the camp Rav what they were and weren’t permitted to do. It seemed that the gentile worker knew more about the operation than the clueless chef. 22 Sivan 5785 “I would compare a camp kitchen to a Pesach hotel. Would you say, ‘We have a frum chef, we don’t need mashgichim?!’” June 18, 2025 19 On the way to inspect the kitchen at Camp Ma’ayan Midwest. Oversight and Sloppiness “I’d like to tell two stories, one of which involved an oversight and one of which involved sloppiness,” says Rabbi Kaufman. “We visited one camp, which was locked down tight and very well maintained. There were charts for every hafrashas challah that was performed, which was impressive for a site without a formal hashgachah. “The chef showed us the outdoor grills they used for cookouts and proudly declared, ‘I turn them on.’ He thought he was thereby avoiding any question of bishul akum. I asked, ‘Do the gentile workers call you when they run out of propane? It has to happen every now and then.’ He replied, ‘I never thought of that.’ A serious oversight! “I asked the chef, ‘Do the gentile workers call you when they run out of propane?’ He replied, ‘I never thought of that.’ A serious oversight!” “This is why in all kashrus organizations, there are multiple layers of supervision. There is the on-site mashgiach, the manager on top of him, and the Rabbinical coordinator and kashrus administrator; the many sets of eyes ensure that someone catches whatever was missed. “Then there is the case of sloppiness. We visited a site where the frum chef acted as mashgiach together with two bachurim. They knew all that was going on, and it was a good solid place. However, the chef told us, ‘As far as the canteen, I can’t take achrayus. It is run by two bachurim, and you won’t be happy.’” Rabbi Kaufman described what he found at that site. “There were two deep fryers located side by side, one for pizza rolls and one for chicken nuggets. Canteens nowadays are full-service fast food places,” he quips. “The bachurim were not interested in talking, telling us, ‘We’re on top of things.’ “When I looked at the keilim, some were marked and some were not. Many were tossed, mixed together, in a single bin under the table. ‘I know which is which,’ said one the bachurim in charge, although that seemed implausible. They prepared both milchigs and fleishigs on top of a chest freezer and told us they covered it with foil when doing one or the other. The two fryers were side by side with a 14-inch divider, which was covered in grease. Obviously, grease had been splattering over the top, which is a major problem. I told the Kitchen Hashgachah in Chassidishe Camps The kashrus of the kitchens in private camps is the responsibility of the individual owner. However, Chassidishe camps, generally owned and operated by the kehillah, are under the auspices of the Dayanim of the kehillah. “We have a boys camp and a girls camp,” says Rabbi Yisrael Mering, the director of the Vizhnitz summer camps. “The Dayanim of the kehillah are the ones who set the standard for the camps. Each of the two camps has its individual Dayan. In one camp the Dayan does the inspection of the kitchen, while in the other the Dayan oversees the kashrus through a mashgiach he appoints. “Knowing that whatever happens in the kitchen is under the supervision of the Dayanim allows the campers and staff to enjoy whatever is served with no doubts as to its kashrus. As the passuk says in Tehillim (22:27), ‘Yochlu anavim v’yisba’u.’” 22 Sivan 5785 bachur, ‘Your fryer baskets are identical and not marked. You cannot possibly know the difference.’ “The chef called the Rav of the camp, who was so embarrassed when he heard what was happening. To his credit, he planned to shut it down on the spot. We discussed the difficulty of kashering the fryers; libun would inevitably break them. Instead, the camp administration bought new ones. They planned to build a new shack to house either milchigs or fleishigs.” The mashgichim jointly decry the transformation of camp canteens to businesses. Some camps are outsourcing the concession so that a proprietor owns canteens in several camps with no hashgachah. “It’s like buying from a food truck without any hashgachah,” they agree. Success Story Yet there are success stories as well. “We went to a site that needed improvement, and the kitchen manager said it was too cumbersome to implement,” says Rabbi Kaufman. “Yet the owner invited us back before the next summer and showed us that he had expanded the kitchen to separate milchigs and fleishigs, and the kitchen manager was now engaged in improving the supervision. ‘We are committed,’ the owner told us. ‘I implemented every improvement you suggested.’ I checked it over and recommended two additional improvements. On the spot, the kitchen manager called down the handyman and electrician, who did the work before I left the camp!” “By and large, camps are receptive to listening and doing what they could do to improve their kashrus,” Rabbi Tendler says. “To date, we have visited nearly three dozen camps and hope to help others in the coming year.” “At AKO executive meetings, I use the AKO camp committee as an exemplar of a successful initiative and a model for the other projects we wish to launch,” Rabbi Fishbane says proudly. “Those include an initiative to upgrade the kashrus operation in yeshivos and shul kitchens.” In a future article, Hamodia will discuss those initiatives. Camps who would like to arrange inspection with the committee can contact camps@akokosher.org