How did Shabbos mode come to be—and what problems was it actually designed to solve? Rabbi Shmuel Katz, Rabbinic Coordinator at the cRc, joins R’ Yitzy Hisiger for a fascinating look at the history, halachic challenges, and ingenious solutions behind the Shabbos modes in today’s appliances. Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am joined by Rabbi Shmuel Katz, Rabbinic Coordinator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you, Rabbi Katz, for joining us once again. Thank you. The last time we met, we spoke about the concept of Shabbos mode, and you gave us a beautiful primer about the workings of Shabbos mode, halachically, practically. What I'd like to discuss with you today briefly are some of the issues that Shabbos mode came to address. I think it would be interesting to go back historically to when the original oven shailos arose. What were the issues that were discussed by the poskim, and how did Shabbos mode address those issues? So Shabbos modes were started only in the last 30 years, but the shailos have been about 100 years old. And the shailos, the tshuvas really started with the thermostats on fridges. This was an electronic appliance, and people discovered that it had a thermostat, which meant when the temperature in the fridge gets too high, it turns the fridge back on to cool it back down. So people opened the fridge, the cold air would come in, it would make it warm and it would cause it to go on. And the poskim discussed: Can you cause the fridge to go on on Shabbos when you open the door? Can you open the door and allow it to happen? An oven's was the same thing. It had a thermostat. You open the oven door, the cold air would go in, it would cause the temperature to drop, the fire would then go back on to do it. Ovens as well, if you open the oven door, even if the flame is on, the fire would stay on for longer because now it needs to stay on for longer, like being mosef shemen, which is a problem on Shabbos. Is that mosef shemen? And is your action of opening the oven door directly causing this? So Rabbi Shlomo Zalman has many tshuvas, and is probably the original of the heterim to open the fridge on Shabbos even when the compressor's not on. So some solved this by just waiting for the fridge to turn on. Only when the compressor was on and it was rattling, would you open the fridge door because then you're not causing it to go on, it's already on. And the same thing with ovens, would only open the oven door when the fire was on. This is what became... there were people who were being meikel and wouldn't worry about this shaila because of their rabbonim, and the ones who were machmir were very often just waiting for the compressor to go on or the fridge to go on. And that was the original Shabbos mode. You just spoke to your rabbi, you knew how to use it in a way that's appropriate for Shabbos. And then about 25, 30 years ago, the appliance manufacturers were tapping into this and working with, and the Star-K was a real pioneer in Shabbos modes to solve Shabbos problems. Originally at that point, they were focused more on more new problems, not related to the old ones. So some new ovens, after 12 hours they would turn off. Who leaves their oven on twenty-four, for 12 hours? After 12 hours it would go off, and that would be a problem for Shabbos or Yom Tov for sure if you needed to keep it on. Another very practical thing, but people would like their oven to go off Friday night, set the timer so it turns off Friday night after your food's done. So ovens come with a time-bake feature where you can set a timer, but almost all ovens they beep and they continuously beep after the timer ends, which would be very annoying on Shabbos to have the timer beeping the rest of Shabbos, and Shabbos mode would disable that. So there was a couple of those practical types of things that the Shabbos mode was solving. Then lights became common, and Shabbos mode very often were also able to solve the light. Fridges also the Shabbos mode came to solve a bunch of problems. One of the probably biggest problems, besides for the light, those don't turn off after 12 hours like ovens do, but there's a defrost in the back of the fridge. It builds up ice, or frost-free are fridges. In the old days you had to manually defrost your fridge. Ours are frost-free, gratefully we're not dealing with the ice build-up. But the way it does is it turns it off and it puts a heating, there's a heating element in there and it gets red hot. It actually, which we, which is esh. There's fire in there. So eventually there's a fire going to go on in the back of your fridge, a halachic fire for Shabbos purposes, that's going to melt the ice off. So the question was what triggered that to go on and off? So in more recent models, again, recently not in the last few years but in the past decades, they've put those on, they want to do it efficiently, so they started doing it by how often the compressor runs. After a certain amount of time the compressor's running and the fridge is cooling, it assumes there's a build-up and it will go into defrost mode. Another thing they would do is count how many times you open the door, because humidity affects how much humidity's in the fridge is going to affect it, and that's going to also depend how many times you open the door and let in ambient air into the fridge. So it counts those door switches. So eventually you'd open the door a few times, let's say it's every tenth door opening, you've that tenth one, you've opened it and it said let's turn on the defrost, and that's actually a de'oraysa shaila because it's an actual fire going on in there. So the Shabbos modes almost universally solve that by Putting it on a fixed timer. It goes on every so often automatically, unrelated to how often the compressor's running and how many times the door's been opened. It's been able to solve some of those as well. It'll disable Shabbos modes will disable the buttons so almost all the buttons won't work on your fridges and on your oven or at least when you push them nothing will happen, nothing will be visible from it. So they've come to solve a lot of minor issues and then some practical issues and then some halachic issues as well. The Shabbos modes have become very helpful for. Got it. Any other issues that you wanted to discuss as far as the Shabbos mode addressing? We discussed thermostats, you discussed the the defrost right. So the door switches is also something we discussed in the last episode. We discussed last time yeah. The door switch and what the door switch does. But just to go back to the pre-Shabbos mode days of the thermostat to discuss that for a minute. Rav Shlomo Zalman was talking about in his teshuvas. He's talking about a very old thermostat that they would use then which had a capsule of gas of liquid. If it got too warm it would expand into gas and would blow up a what was called a bellows which is essentially a balloon. And that balloon would physically push a button to contact and turn the oven on or turn the fridge on and then it would cool, it would go back into liquid, it would shrink and then the contacts would come off and that's how the compressor went off. So this was a very physical physical manual of sorts analog version of a thermostat. Thermostats have come have changed quite a bit. Our current thermostats in ovens and fridges have no moving parts. There's just a little bit of metal in there. The computer's sending an electrical signal through what is a thermistor and it's and measures the resistance of the electric through it and that resistance changes based on temperatures. It's very minute. It changes very slightly but these are super sensitive and they can pick up the slightest changes in temperature by sending electricity through a piece of metal and seeing how it comes out the other end. They can detect it so it's it's an entirely different thermostat than Rav Shlomo Zalman was ever talking about which does have halachic ramifications and the poskim and the certifiers of Shabbos modes work very closely with to figure out. So Rav Shlomo Zalman was was meikel in certain scenarios. There were machmirim but since then the Shabbos modes have said hey we can actually solve we might be able to solve the thermostat problem as well. So besides for making it as like an old thermostat or at least as good as the one that Shlomo Zalman was being mattir, they said we can solve it entirely and various attempts have been made at figuring out how to solve this. Some some super creative. Some people were just putting their fridges on timers. You put your fridge on a timer it the whole fridge goes off every 15 minutes for five minutes and while it's off you quickly open it and close it and you take whatever you want out. It's not very good for the new fridges. The new fridges have a computer in there and they have very strict cheshbonos on how they operate and when they do so it for the new fridges. Would it be good for it to be going on and off randomly? It's terrible for the fridge. The new the new fancy fridges it's completely terrible for but this is what people were doing. The old fridges could handle it because that's kind of how they were built anyways. They were just unplugging and plugging themselves in with the bellows. But the new fridges they can't they're not built for it so you're really going to reduce the life of your fridge if you do something like that. Even taping down your door switch the whole week is bad for the fridge because they they built the fridge to be to rely on that feedback for various functions and and the experts say it'll reduce the life of your fridge if you keep it taped down the whole week. It may not even cool properly because it's it relies that when it's the door's open it will know it. So over Shabbos it'll be okay but over to do it the whole week and just leave it like that permanently on the newer fridges they say will reduce the lifespan of your fridge. So the the ways to solve the thermostat we started with putting it on a timer some people were doing and then the agencies got involved and they were able to work with the work with them and and come up with creative solutions. So some of them have where they put it instead of constantly taking the temperature and knowing and then immediately acting upon whenever there's a change in temperature to turn the the appliance on or off it goes it's set to go on at fixed intervals. It'll take a reading right before it goes on to see if it's off a base if it's out of the window but instead of an immediate every every few minutes it'll take one it'll be set to go on and then it'll just take a baseline reading to see if it's off base and needs to skip that one. That's how some solved it. The new Shabbos mode they do something very fascinating. They take the ambient air temperature. Instead of taking the temperature in the oven they'll take the temperature outside the oven and they'll know based on the temperature outside the oven how often the fire inside needs to go on or off. Interesting. Another another solution some came up with was to let the oven remember from during the the fridge remember from during the week. We know that in your house this is how often the fridge the compressor needs to go on to keep your items cool because we've measured it the whole week. So it's gonna vary from house to house and appliance to appliance and use person to person depending on how you use it. So it depends on the person, your usage of it, depends on the environment around it, depends on the ambient temperature in the room, the humidity, all things, so if you just measure that during the week you can now know pretty well how often you're gonna need to go on and you just skip the thermostat entirely and on Shabbos only use go based on a fixed time cycle that you've determined by using the week beforehand. So there've been some creative ways that the Shabbos modes have been able to solve the thermostat shaylah and make the ovens and fridges even better than they were when the tshuvos were started to be written about a hundred years ago and those tshuvos when they were struggling with the thermostat Baruch Hashem they've some of them have been able to solve it in a way that's way better than we've had in the past but again this varies from model to model, it varies from certifier to certifier and type of Shabbos mode to type of Shabbos mode it's gonna vary. So to know what you actually if you've always been machmir on the thermostat shaylah you're gonna want to know how your current one works very specifically with your specific model to make sure that it's changed enough for you to change the way what you've been doing in your house until now. Got it. Okay, so you know the bottom line is if you have whatever appliances in your house you have to make sure that you're following the proper protocol and people who are buying appliances in addition to finding out the features, the model, the price you have to find out the halachic ramifications and components and get proper guidance so that it addresses some of the issues that you spoke about today that Shabbos mode were designed was designed to solve. Yeah. Right, and I want to add that it is very important if you have an appliance in your house to find out how it works but it's also crucial if you're going to buy an appliance understand how you want to use it and figure out if this is what you want to do with it and what the right model for you is. If you don't intend to ever kasher it for Pesach then don't worry about kashering it for Pesach when purchasing your model. But if you do you may want to know that in advance. Here's another example on ranges. Induction burners are very popular right now. A lot of houses they're neat, they're sleek, they might even be safer because they don't get hot. But if you have non-Jewish domestic help they're terrible because you can't turn the fire on and let them put a pot on the stove anymore as Ashkenazim because there's no fire there. So if you have non-Jewish you don't want to buy an induction burner if you have because then you have to actually put the pot on the stove for them. You can't just turn the fire on and let them go induction burner. So it's worth pre-purchase walk in don't buy the sleekest model and then afterwards call your rav and say how do I use this on Shabbos? Figure out how you want to use it and then go buy a model that fits your needs in the best halachic way possible that matches your needs as well. Excellent. Rabbi Katz thank you this has been a tremendous lesson in the workings of our home appliances and we greatly appreciate your expertise. Thank you. Thank you.

What does “Shabbos Mode” actually do—and what doesn’t it do? Rabbi Shmuel Katz, Rabbinic Coordinator at the cRc, joins R’ Yitzy Hisiger for an important discussion about the halachic realities, potential pitfalls, and different types of Shabbos modes found in today’s ovens. Hello and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the cRC, the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Shmuel Katz, rabbinical coordinator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Rabbi Katz, welcome to the Let's Talk Kashrus studio. Thank you for having me here. It's a pleasure to have you here all the way from Chicago to discuss a very pertinent topic, something that comes up a lot, and that's the topic of Shabbos mode on ovens. So just so that we proceed through this conversation responsibly, could you define for our viewers and our listeners, what does Shabbos mode do on an oven and then we'll get into the practical and halachic ramifications? So what is Shabbos mode? Okay, so that's a very loaded question, what is Shabbos mode? And that's where the misunderstanding start immediately. Appliances have been hitting consumer houses for about a hundred years. The shailos from the poskim are about a hundred years old already. These been building on each other, but appliances are not static. They've changed. They're not the same thermostat that Rav Shlomo Zalman wrote his teshuvos on. It's a very different product today. And even from Shabbos modes in their twenty-five plus year history have been solving different problems. So in the original days, they were more convenience-based. They've morphed at some point into severe halachic shailos and then the psakim involved have also kept up. And now there's multiple Shabbos modes available on the market for the consumers to be able to get to. So on a practical level, and correct me if anything I say is not accurate, but the way I understand it is that the chief Shabbos mode addresses certain electrical issues on an oven. If it's an electrical oven where, you know, you have lights that will go on or numbers that will change and things of that sort. Once it's in Shabbos mode, that gets solved and now the oven can be opened and closed without triggering any of anything electrical. It didn't sound so sophisticated, but does that make sense? So yes, but the answer's going to really depend on the model and the oven. It's going to be crucial to look at the instructions from the certifier on how to use it properly. For example, some models, they may have a freezer may have an ice maker that's not connected to the main computer. Some ovens have a light that's not connected to the main computer. So they'll have a Shabbos mode and it'll solve a lot of problems, but it can't solve the light in the oven or the ice maker in the freezer because it's not connected to the main computer. If it's not connected to the computer, they have to be disabled separately. And these instructions you'll be able to find from the certifier in their instructions on how to use that model properly. So obviously it's very important to know what the rules are from the certifier and how to use the Shabbos mode properly and what it does or doesn't solve is very important. When you say certifier, you mean that an actual kashrus organization is certifying the Shabbos mode on an oven? Is that usually the way it works? That should be the way it works. Okay. But it's a very important first step is to find out if there is a certifier. At this point, almost all models on the market are going to have some form of a Shabbos mode. Some of them don't have a certifier. So there's no one who's looked at this from a halachic standpoint and said this is kosher to use at all. So the company did that on their own volition? They decided to have a Shabbos mode to attract Orthodox consumers? So for one reason or another, sometimes it's there because it was designed at one point with a kashrus agency and then they no longer work with that or they stuck it on a model that they couldn't fully solve and an agency can't certify. So the first step is to make sure there is a certification agency. If there's no certification, no certifier on the Shabbos mode, there's no way to know that it's working properly unless you do extensive testing yourself, which is above the average consumer's skills. I would also add that generally, if you're buying your appliances from a frum purveyor of appliances, usually that frum proprietor will be able to tell you which appliances have, you know, I'll use Town Appliance as an example, one of the largest provider of appliances to the frum community. I know that they're very well versed in the Shabbos mode options in various appliances. So, you know, that's a place to start, but like you said, you have to verify with each individual whatever agency it is that's certifying it. Now, from what I understand, which is absolutely mind-boggling, is that tremendous michsholim have come out of the Shabbos mode, strangely, because Shabbos mode is there to solve Shabbos problems. But unfortunately, either due to ignorance or just, you know, assumptions or lack of awareness, people have made assumptions about Shabbos mode. For example, there's an issur of bishul on Shabbos. You're not allowed to cook on Shabbos. No matter how your oven is designed, you can't cook on Shabbos. But are people not realizing that Shabbos mode may solve an appliance issue, but you still can't take food and cook it in an oven even if it has a Shabbos mode? If you could elaborate on that. Yeah, so that's very important. When the first Shabbos modes came out, they called it Shabbos mode, and then it was discovered that people were using it to cook on Shabbos. Putting it into Shabbos mode meant that the oven is now solved. So it's crucial to remember the regular halachos of an oven apply, the regular issur of bishul is going to apply. The shehiya is still going to apply, which means you can't leave raw food in an oven from before Shabbos without a blech, and ovens don't have a blech. Chazara, you can't put stuff back into an oven on Shabbos even if it's fully cooked, again, because it needs a blech. So most ovens do not have a system to have a blech. Even in a lot of, even in Shabbos mode, they may not have a system that allows for that. And those halachos continue to apply as well. Shabbos mode has also introduced new angles to various challenges, which means depending on how the Shabbos mode was built, certain activities may or may not have been allowed in doing it. The Star-K in a lot of their models, they say very clearly that after you open the oven door, you can't close it with any food still inside on Shabbos. And this is related to the original psak of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the original machlokes with thermostats, but it's since then morphed into the way they've designed their Shabbos mode. So you're saying, you're saying to clarify, this Star-K caveat, even if the food is fully cooked, there are certain ovens that once you open it up, you can't close it on Shabbos. That's what you're saying. That is correct. And the Star-K makes this clear in their, in their manual, that that is not allowed to close it. So these, the consumer needs to be aware of what the Shabbos mode is, how the Shabbos mode's working, and what it does or doesn't allow even with things as simple as what you may have been used to doing for many years is to have your soup in there and your chicken for Friday night and have your cholent for Shabbos day in there, and you take your soup and chicken out and close it and leave your cholent in there for Shabbos day. That may not be allowed even in certain Shabbos modes. Depending on, depending on the model. This would depend on the model and how the Shabbos mode itself was built, so it's going to depend. Got it. So basically we can't give a blanket statement about any appliances here because you're saying it varies from appliance to appliance and from certifier to certifier. So unfortunately we like to give practical advice, but as much as we like to do that, we can't do that, you're saying, because it varies. It does vary model to model, it does vary also from certifier to certifier. The new GE models, just to give very practical advice, GE has two things. Number one is that some of their ovens actually have two Shabbos modes together. So you can get a GE, a GE oven, and it'll have two Shabbos modes available for it. And one is going to be completely uncertified and the other one is certified by the OU. Doing the same exact thing or doing... They are working differently. They're two separate settings, two separate modes on the oven. The way to access them would be different. But you can buy a GE model and assume that it has and end up in the wrong Shabbos mode that's completely uncertified. So with GE ovens, the ones that are completely uncertified, we don't, no one knows what they do. No one from our community has been checking on that. But on the certified version with the OU, it's certified by the OU and it has, they've solved a lot of problems and you can read their instructions for it. So they have, they do solve a lot more issues in certain ways, but it does have a different type of Shabbos mode than a lot of other brands that have a regular Shabbos mode. The Star-K also has an additional Shabbos mode called what they call the New Shabbos mode, which also solves some of the old problems and also another very different way. So if I had to break it down, there's let's say four Shabbos modes available on the market right now in, and this is for the American USA consumer. Obviously in Eretz Yisroel it's a whole different parsha, which is not, we're not going to discuss here. But there's four Shabbos modes. One is the company's own engineer stuck the name on and no one knows what it does. Number two is the Star-K, who's been the real pioneer in Shabbos modes in building that relationship with appliance manufacturers, their regular Shabbos mode. The Star-K more recently has come up with something they call the New Shabbos mode, which also solves problems that a lot of people wanted to be solved as the shailas got more severe. And then GE has a relationship with the OU where they have their own what they call Enhanced Shabbos mode. So yeah, it does sound a little similar, the names. A regular Shabbos mode versus a New Shabbos mode or an Enhanced Shabbos mode or or just a Shabbos mode that's not certified at all. Now we've been talking largely about ovens and when people hear Shabbos mode they think of ovens, but there are Shabbos modes for other appliances. There are Shabbos modes for other appliances as well. Like refrigerators? Refrigerators and ice makers, freezers, or right, refrigerators, freezers, some other small appliances. The biggest michshol happens in ovens, which is why the focus today is specifically on ovens because the biggest michshol is on ovens. Got it. Any other thoughts on this topic before we wrap up that you would share with our viewers? So there's three things that need to happen when you're getting an oven: is to verify that there is a certifier. There is the second thing is to verify what the certifier says is allowed. And there's a third thing we didn't have a chance to discuss yet which is: it's crucial to figure out if your rov will tell you to follow the psakim of the certifier. And that is a crucial step in this. The Shabbos modes are built based on the certifiers' psakim that they have, and they may not be universal. Sometimes I give the example of Cholov Stam. It's certified, but it still remains Cholov Stam. So if you don't eat Cholov Stam and it's not Cholov Yisroel, it won't be for you. It won't be for you. Right. So it's crucial to understand that there are psakim involved in this. The way they're solved is not always universally accepted, and therefore it's worth speaking with your own rov based on the Shabbos mode you have and how it works to figure out what may or may not be acceptable for you in your house. I want to point out something also which we didn't mention before is the Shabbos, but there's also Yom Tov. You know that people and again you'll tell me if this is correct, but on Yom Tov you may be allowed to cook, right, bishul's mutar on Yom Tov, but you'll still need your Shabbos mode on your oven to solve other issues like the electrical issues and lights and so on and so forth. So you mention bishul sheyei chazarah and things like that. Those may not be issues on Yom Tov, but a Shabbos mode is still going to be vitally important and you have to speak to your possek or whoever it is, the certifier, to find out what the parameters are for Yom Tov use. Correct. So to discuss a specific sheilah that's on ovens, which would be very nogeiah for Yom Tov and are really very nogeiah for Shabbos, is in more recently, it's not recent as in the last five years, this has already been going on for well over ten years or longer, they've put a door switch on. So we're used to door switches from our fridges and from our ovens. We open the oven door, the fridge door, the lights go on, and then we close it, the lights go off. So thirty years ago, forty years ago, we just unscrewed the light bulb, and that was the only thing the door switch did. Since then, these door switches have started controlling a lot of various parts of the fridge and oven. And to focus on ovens specifically, a lot of door switches today when you open the oven door, it turns off the heating in there. So until now, the sheilah has always been when you open the oven door, the cold air comes in and turns the fire on. What's happening now in a lot of ovens or almost maybe even most ovens, you open the oven door, the oven says, "Hey, the door's open, there's no purpose in heating this, let's turn it off until they close the door." So there is a bit of a safety element there, it's also much more efficient that way. So when you open the oven door, you're turning the oven off, and almost even more severely, when you close the oven door, you're not just closing the oven door, you're actually turning the oven back on. And this is not happening by magic, it's happening by a physical door switch. So with the oven door closing, you're pushing a button which tells the oven, "Please turn yourself back on." And obviously, pushing a button directly on Shabbos to turn your oven on is going to be assur according to everyone. But that is one of the most severe sheilahs on ovens, and that will be a problem on Yom Tov as well. Happens to be in the oven that I have in my house, which we purchased from Town Appliance, we got a magnet from them. They supplied it for us to put on the I guess it's the door switch that de-compresses the button so that it stays pushed down and it won't trigger anything. But that's just one example of addressing that problem. Right, and the various Shabbos modes solve that problem differently of a door switch. The various Shabbos modes solve it differently, and some rabbonim recommend even in Shabbos mode to make sure you have that magnet. Right, exactly. In my case, we still need to put the oven into Shabbos mode. So you really need to do multiple things. You do both. You're putting the oven into Shabbos mode because of a whole series of issues that it solves, and then you're putting the magnet on essentially because your own rov is saying this one particular issue we don't like the way the Shabbos mode solves it and therefore you should use a magnet to disable that manually and independently. So sometimes when you have an oven, so the Shabbos mode will tell you you need to put it into Shabbos mode plus do this, and sometimes your rov will give you an additional step of putting a magnet over the door switch, which is very common that a lot of rabbonim give that psak to do that. Additionally, some people will do it for practical reasons because if you want to leave food in your oven on Shabbos and the Star-K Shabbos mode solves it in a way that doesn't allow for that, the magnet may help for that. Leave food in the oven in the oven on Shabbos. Again, all with the guidance of your rav on what's appropriate for leaving food in the oven on Shabbos and opening and closing the oven door on Shabbos. Got it, Rabbi Katz. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for informing us about the Shabbos mode issues. Again, to our viewers and listeners, without a doubt, they should consult their rav and posek and speak to the respective certifiers of various appliances to get the full picture of what's necessary. But thank you for being here and giving us this information. We greatly appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Behatzlacha in shmiras Shabbos and behatzlacha for Klal Yisrael. Continued hatzlacha. Thank you.

Why do some Pepsi products have a K, some a Kof-K, and some no hechsher at all? Can you drink them? Rabbi Alexander Charlop, Rav Hamachshir for Pepsi, takes us behind the scenes to explain the surprising answers—including how Pepsi's secret formula stays secret while remaining kosher. Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the CRC of Chicago. Today I am honored to be joined by Rabbi Alexander Charlop, the Rov of Zichron Chaim in Cleveland and the Rav Hamachshir on Pepsi products. Thank you Rabbi Charlop for being here. Pleasure. Yasher koach. It's a zchus we've been trying to get you here for a while so we finally made it happen, Baruch Hashem. Now it's interesting, you are a rov in Cleveland, but you are involved in kashrus unrelated to your rabbinical duties. This is something that as I would want to hear you speak about, this is actually a position as the Rav Hamachshir on Pepsi that you yarshened, you inherited from your father who inherited it from his father. So this is something that's been in the Charlop family for years. Just take us down that road of history how that developed. Okay so my grandfather came to America in 1920 be'erech. He came from Yerushalayim. In around 1930 or so he started to realize that in America with food being made commercially, you really needed to have kashrus commercially. He was one of the founders of the OU kashrus department. That's your zeida. Yes. Rabbi Yechiel Michel Charlop. Then he went on his own, he went away from it. He actually, I believe, was the one that got them Heinz, which was like the first big commercial hashgacha that was gotten. And then he went away from the OU, he went on his own. He gave the hashgacha I believe since 1934 on Pepsi. Now there are a number of questions that come up and maybe we'll get into them. How do you give hashgacha on Pepsi if Pepsi tries to maintain a secret? We'll get to that. But and he developed, and he had a relationship with them until he was nifter in 1974. My father took over 1974 and gave the hashgacha till 2014. I worked with him for a number of years beforehand, but I took over the hashgacha since 2014. Now the Charlop family, are you related to the famous Rabbi Yaakov Moshe Charlop, is that same mishpacha? Yes, Rabbi Chiel Michel was a ben bechor of Rabbi Yaakov Moshe. Oh really? Wow. Okay. So mishpacha meyuchases. He was a rov in the Bronx and yeah. Very interesting. So it is a unique thing that this has carried over from generation to generation. It's besides for fulfilling your duties as a Rav Hamachshir, you're literally carrying on the legacy of your zeida and now your father which makes it extra special. How would you describe the yeoman's task of giving the hashgacha on Pepsi and what are some of the challenges that you encounter? Okay, so the fact that they're so large really makes the hashgacha much easier. 99 percent of our work is very boring. Because they have systems in place. Good hashgachas have good systems. The OU developed many systems that many of us mimic or take part, add, subtract, and they work very well with systems. So for example, just as a mashal, if you're giving hashgacha on a local restaurant that might only be doing $75,000 of sales a year, the owner of that restaurant could be short on oil and he could go out to a store and get oil which is a major sakana maybe he'll get oil that's not kosher. At a Pepsi plant where they're producing Pepsi, there's nobody in that building that has the ability to order anything for Pepsi. He can put in a request and most of it is not even by his request. He's just given the task to actually produce it. There's the team that does procurement, there's a team that's involved in regulatory, and the way Pepsi is set up now is that part of regulatory's jobs, part of what they're doing is making sure that it is compliant with kosher. In fact... You mean that's actually included in their responsibility? Correct. Just as they have allergen compliance and FDA compliance, all these different compliance, one of the compliance that they need to check before they run any product, because right now everything they run, we'll get into detail of certain ones that are a little trickier, but everyone that they run, anything that's in a Pepsi concentrate facility is kosher right now. You could have 700 ingredients, every one of them is kosher. How many such Pepsi producing facilities are there around the United States? Okay, so now... This is the part that makes it much easier again from a Kashrus vantage point. I don't know if I'm allowed to say the exact number, but I can tell you that a Pepsi concentrate has something called global procurement. They are concerned about always being able to deal with any issue that could come up. So if the Strait of Hormuz is closed, they have another option. If COVID hit, they have another option. And therefore they're really biktzei haaretz, they're at totally different ends of the world. But they have a handful, literally five different plants that are supplying different parts. Most of it is supplied from one or two concentrate facilities, but there are five concentrate facilities that are part of... around the world? Around the world. That provide to the smaller Pepsi facilities, would you say, or...? They are providing all the concentrate of anything in America for sure. Anything in America is provided by these concentrate facilities. Are all Pepsi beverages under your supervision? So all the what is called the cold fill, all the regular carbonated drinks, the concentrate for all of them is kosher. Now some of them are a little trickier than others, meaning about ten fifteen years ago they started introducing certain energy drinks such as Kickstart. Now Kickstart, all the concentrate... which is a Mountain Dew brand? Mountain Dew Kickstart, yes, thank you. Mountain Dew Kickstart is getting the concentrate from a concentrate facility. The concentrate facility is totally kosher. Anything coming out of the concentrate facility is kosher. But they have also direct drop. Meaning what does that mean in layman's terms? They have certain ingredients that are directly sent to the bottler or through a DC, a distribution center, which the distribution center sends it to many bottlers. When it comes to Kickstart, so Kickstart has a grape juice component. It advertises ten percent juice. Almost always when they're advertising ten percent fruit juice, what they're referring to is white grape juice. White grape juice is the cheapest, sweetest juice that they use. That is being sent directly to the bottler. Now they do order kosher grape juice, but grape juice is a very sensitive product. You can't just rely on the bottler getting it and assume that it's okay. And therefore we strongly recommend we would not take any responsibility and would say that you should only drink Mountain Dew Kickstart if the bottler has hashgacha. Okay, and how would you know that? Okay, so now the bottlers are at their own discretion can decide if or if not they will have hashgacha and they can decide which hashgacha. Many of them are independently owned and they can decide which hashgacha. For example, the New York area bottler is under Kaf-K. There are another couple bottlers as well that are under Kaf-K. They, because of marketing, they put a Kaf-K on the cans, on the bottle. There are many other bottlers that also have hashgacha will only put a K because it gets too complicated, they don't want to order a million cans with their emblem. So collectively all of them will just order with a K. You might have one or two might be under the Star-K, you might have one or two under the CRC, you might have one or two Northeast Vaad of Philadelphia... but the K is representing all of them? And K is for any kosher. As of now, I can't always guarantee it, as of now they always run by us who they want to use for a specific bottler and they will only use somebody that we say is reliable. Okay, got it. As of today, as of this recording, right? This conversation, yes. And based on that, if I would see a Kickstart with a K... you're comfortable because there's hashgacha on the bottling facility. Correct. So it's interesting, you jumped right into that topic which is one of the big Pepsi questions is why certain bottles of Pepsi products have a Kaf-K, some have a K, some don't have hashgacha on it at all. So you addressed why it may have a Kaf-K or a K because those supervising agencies are giving the hashgacha on the local bottling facility in that region. But why is there sometimes no hashgacha on a Pepsi product even though really it sounds like it would be kosher? So many of the bottlers... you are not allowed to put a hashgacha on your final product unless that final product was bottled with somebody taking responsibility that it is kosher. We will not take responsibility on a bottler if we never walked into that bottler and if we don't have ongoing visits into a bottler, we're not going to take the responsibility for the bottler. In truth, I wouldn't be concerned about the bottler without taking responsibility because they only... But that mere system, that mere system, that fear is enough to make you comfortable to drink from any Pepsi bottling facility in the United States? Yes, because for them to deviate, they would be paying so much money not to use Pepsi. Right, right. And it will be caught. And what about besides for the concentrate, aren't there other ingredients that they're using that may be of concern? So right now, at a bottler, on a regular drink, let's say Pepsi, Diet Pepsi, it's not Sierra Mist anymore, I forgot what all the different flavors that they have, the Mug flavors, the regular Mountain Dew flavors, including all their orange blast and berry blast and all the different names that they make are just different flavors in the concentrate. All that is kosher. What goes in at the bottler level is very simple. There's sweetener that goes in, which Pesach presents a major issue, but during the year sweetener whether it's corn syrup or sugar is what would be called a group one. It's very simple. Carbonation, water, very simple. They will have sent through the DCs, they'll send citric acid, sometimes another salt like a potassium benzoate, which are also all group ones. Furthermore, we are on top of all the distribution centers. There are a few distribution centers in America. We regularly visit them to make sure everything that Pepsi says that they are sending to the final product is kosher. Right. And how about the fact that it's an independent facility, you're not worried about shared equipment or using it for other runs and things like that? Very good question. So the assumption of most kashrus organizations in America is that that is not an issue because it's what is called a cold fill plant. Okay. So everything there is filled cold. You will have something that they'll just have to dissolve a concentrate but even that is not getting hot. There's no kli rishon. Got it. So even in a scenario where they would use it, it would still be cold. Correct. Even if they used it for something else that wasn't kosher? And you're saying it's probably not even likely that they're doing that. Right. The only thing that they use it for other than Pepsi is a number of the bottlers might bottle another national brand such as Dr. Pepper. Okay. But it doesn't challenge the integrity of the kashrus. Got it. And especially because nothing is hot and nothing is kavush, nothing is left in a tank for 24 hours overnight or anything like that. Got it. And Baruch Hashem, you build up a rapport. I remember the first time we went, they're very concerned about other people coming in just from proprietary purposes, but the first time the Badatz gives in Eretz Yisrael, and so we're dealing with the ingredients all the time together. And I remember we went to a specific supplier, and Rabbi Binder from the Badatz and I went down to the supplier. Rabbi Binder is brilliant and really understands the chemistry of ingredients very well. But we had to sign confidentiality agreement beforehand. By the time we left, they were nervous that he could repeat... that he's that brilliant. Aha, very interesting. They weren't worried about me. That's interesting. But I'm happy you brought up Rabbi Binder, you talk about Eretz Yisrael because that was going to be my next question. Basically we're comfortable with Pepsi in the United States, you're pretty much good to go with basically everything. Except for the Kickstart which needs either a K or Kof-K. Right, which needs a specific hashgacha. What's the story with Pepsi products outside the United States? Eretz Yisrael is great. And that's under the Badatz? That's under the Badatz, yes. Okay. Is it by the way, is Pepsi in Eretz Yisrael owned by the same Pepsi corporation? It's owned by the same corporation with a lot of overlap. Okay. We're on many emails together. Aha, interesting. So Eretz Yisrael you're okay. How about if someone goes to Europe or South America or wherever it might be? Okay, so at the beginning of the conversation we spoke about what is called global procurement, which is Pepsi's ability to supply globally. Okay. And if this continent gets knocked off, you have this continent and so on and so forth. Global procurement provides for many many countries, including all of Europe, including Russia, including the US, Canada, Mexico, all of Central and South America and Southeast Asia. Not included is one country in South America, Venezuela. Venezuela has its own concentrate facility. I don't know anything about what goes on in Venezuela. Okay. Not included is China, North Korea. India and I would be concerned probably around the number of the countries near India, whether it be Pakistan, Sri Lanka. I'm not sure whether those countries are covered by the India supplier or by global procurement. Got it. So what does that mean now that you've told us that, what does that mean regarding someone who's traveling, sees a Pepsi product, can he buy it, can he use it? If you're desperate, if it's not a third world type of place, in all likelihood you're okay because the Pepsi itself should certainly be made cold fill. There's no hot fill in that so you wouldn't really run into a major problem anyway. I just am hesitant to make a blanket statement. Right, right. Any final thoughts on this fascinating topic? If you're health conscious and you don't want to drink Pepsi, drink Bubly. Is that also Pepsi? Owned by Pepsi, okay. And that's under your supervision as well? Most of the Bubly. All Bubly concentrate is. Again, Bubly plants, the Bubly bottlers go on the same rule as Pepsi. Right, same rule as we discussed prior. Rabbi Harlap, thank you for being here. It's a tremendous zchus again, we wanted to speak to you for a while. Thank you for bringing us into the world of Pepsi and we wish you continued hatzlacha in your avodas hakodesh in carrying on the avoda that your father fulfilled so admirably, that your grandfather pioneered so many years ago in the last century and continued hatzlacha in all your avoda.

Why is there so much more Beis Yosef meat available today? What does "glatt" really mean? And are all glatt and Beis Yosef standards the same? Rabbi Zvi Fishbane - Rosh HaShochtim of the cRc - takes us inside the world of shechita, tracing the evolution of kosher meat standards and explaining what consumers should know. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let’s Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the CRC of Chicago. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Zvi Fishbane, long-time Rosh Hashochtim at the CRC of Chicago. Rabbi Fishbane, welcome. R’ Zvi Fishbane: Thank you, Shalom. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I’ve been privileged in the past to talk to your son, Reb Sholem. R’ Zvi Fishbane: Yes, Baruch Hashem, we’re very proud. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And today we are zocheh to have you after all this time. So you’ve been the Rosh Hashochtim at the CRC of Chicago. You’ve basically seen everything in the field of shchita. R’ Zvi Fishbane: I joined the world of shchita more than fifty years ago. And Baruch Hashem, I’ve seen a transition of the shchita standards from fifty years ago from the old time until today, and I’ve seen the transition to be on a higher and going on a higher, higher madreiga, then always looking for more hiddurim and more availability on a higher standard of kashrus, Baruch Hashem. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Very often when we hear people reminisce about the old times, they like to say how great things were back then. In the field of kashrus and specifically shchita, what do you see as the primary difference, or at least maybe even take us down memory lane, walk through what it was like five decades ago and then gradually to where we are today? R’ Zvi Fishbane: Well, it’s just very simple is that today, Baruch Hashem, the Olam HaTorah and even the Olam HaChassidus is much more learned and much more broader than it was for the people who were living in America before the war. And because they are such on a higher and they’re more learned with such a higher learning background, they understand more and they are demanding more. Once you’re demanding more, so therefore the industry has to keep up with the demands. I’ll give you a very simple example is that when there was a controversy of nikur or a controversy of chalav Yisrael, what happened? People would rather abstain from eating than get into shailos and look for heterim. So mimaila that itself was a reason that they upgraded the standards to supply the demands of the tzibur, Baruch Hashem. And that’s when I started the shchita world over fifty years ago, the idea of Glatt Kosher was just very didn’t wasn’t the norm. But like I say, the demand became bigger, so they had to find a higher standard of Glatt Kosher. But this is where the problem comes in. Was there enough to supply the tzibur for everything that they were asking for? So then already you have to look on the other side to find more Glatt Kosher. And that’s where the standard already became a little lenient to find more Glatt Kosher. For example, there is there was a when we started out, real Glatt Kosher was 100% Glatt Kosher, there was nothing more or less, you had to have Glatt Kosher if there was a request for it. Today, everything has to be Glatt Kosher and so they use the term today as being commercial glatt. It’s not the real glatt, it’s just called commercial glatt. Now you can stretch that to whatever it means. There is a sefer called Mateh Asher that people use to say up to three—I’ll explain what that is—three ririn, which is basically three sirchos, whatever it may be. We can still call that Glatt Kosher. So it became lenient. All of a sudden, the olam woke up to that and said, hey, this is not what we want. We want the real thing or else we’re just not interested in eating your product. We don’t need it. We’d rather have what we want. So we start asking for Bais Yosef. Bais Yosef is supposed to mean that the Bais Yosef said that we don’t take anything, so therefore the Bais Yosef is supposed to be without anything, nothing on it, no rir, no sircha, nothing, you didn’t play around with the lungs, you didn’t look at it. Okay, all of a sudden the demand for this Bais Yosef standard became higher. So we got to supply the Klal Yisrael with Bais Yosef. Right. Once again, we had to find heterim. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So let’s start at first base for listeners who are watching—listeners are listening, watchers who are watching—who are not shochtim, they don’t know anything about shchita, they’re relying on wonderful hashgacha. like the CRC and others for their, for their meat. What, what does glatt kosher mean in layman's terms? R’ Zvi Fishbane: Let's, let's go back and discuss the origin of what glatt kosher means. There's basically, without going into all the background of all the lomdus in the Gemara, basically we're talking about a machlokes of Rashi and Tosafos. It goes like this. If you find a something in the on the lung, it's called a sircha. Sircha is somewhat of a thin membrane that develops and it'll develop on the lung. So the question is, why as Chazal say, we don't take this. If it's in a certain position on the lung, we cannot accept this as kosher. So it's a machlokes Rashi and Tosafos as to why we don't accept it. Rashi says because anything you find on the lung, it's indicative, it shows that there must be a hole inside the lung, and we know that a nekev mashehu is going to passul the, is one of the treifos, it's in the nekev mashehu in the reiya, in the lung, it's going to passul. Tosafos is cholek on Rashi and says if you find something on the lung, it's not necessarily there's a hole in the lung, it means that there is a, it's going to eventually, since the lung is breathing and it's expanding and it's detracting, so because of the movement of the lung, it's going to eventually make a hole, sof lei l'nakev. That's why certain sirchos you would find on the lung, which would be 100 percent muttar because it's not part of the expansion of the lung. So that's already extended halacha in Yoreh Deah. But this machlokes of Rashi and Tosafos, how does, how does it affect, is that affect everything you find on the lung or not? So there was a time there was called the Beis Yosef and the Rema were talking about a certain procedure that they saw a adhesion, a sircha, an adhesion on the lung, and they would determine if this is what Chazal meant. Meaning like this: they would take this sircha in their hands and they would rub it and expand it, and if it dissolved, oh, it dissolved, so it's going to eventually dissolve anyway, and we're going to call it a sircha bas yoma and it's anyways going to dissolve anyway, so mi-mah nafshach according to Rashi means it never made a, it was never a nekev there in the first place because something that's going to dissolve on its own, it's not, it's indicative there's nothing really there, and according to Tosafos it's going to dissolve anyway, it's, once you make this miyuch u-mishmush on this reiya, so then we're going to, it's not going to be sof lei l'iparek. So this idea of miyuch u-mishmush, it became a machlokes between the Beis Yosef and the Rema. The Beis Yosef says, no, we can't accept such a bedika. And the, and that's where the idea of Beis Yosef means it has to be completely clean without follow up with any type of bedika. The Rema says, no, our minhag in Klal Yisrael to do miyuch u-mishmush. That was fine and dandy, that was beautiful until about approximately 150 years ago, whatever it may be, that they discovered a different way of being bodek the lung. It's called klipa. Klipa means that they took the sircha and with an expert way they can peel the sircha, the adhesion off the lung and check it: is there a hole underneath it or is there not? So that became the norm of how to check. The idea is, if you want to put it in layman's term, the miyuch u-mishmush process was a bedika on the sircha, is this what Chazal wanted, were referring to. And the bedika of klipa is not a bedika on the sircha but it's a bedika on in the lung, what the lung is once you peel it off. Once you peel it off, we're checking the lung. So that's the major difference of klipa and miyuch u-mishmush and it makes a whole difference in what kind of sircha, what's a sircha, how it, but that's, that would be the difference. The problem really is that hayos that it's a machlokes Rashi and Tosafos what the origin of the sircha is, so this idea of klipa is only according to Rashi because what are you doing you're checking for the hole in the lung but according to Tosafos that says it's soifa liporek you're not accomplishing anything with this kleipa. You don't know what's going eventually what's going to happen. And the Simla Chadasha who is the of course the posek acharon in Hilchos Shechita and Bedika says since it's a machlokes Rishonim we have to be machmir like both. So here we got a problem over here that everybody's doing kleipa and that became the minhag in Klal Yisrael but it's not according to all the shitos so it doesn't fit in according to Tosafos mostly according to Tosafos because of this reason because of soifa liporek. So everyone's that's where glatt kosher comes in. Glatt kosher comes in and says listen we're going to we're going to not have anything on the lung so you don't have a problem with Rashi and Tosafos and everybody will be happy. That's good if the glatt kosher is nothing on the lung. But if there's something a little bit on the lung and you're finding a heter is this a sircha this is what the Beis Yosef meant and go through that whole procedure of thought how does it fit in according to Rabbeinu Tam? That's how it that's where the major problem comes in. So what became a glatt kosher standard lowered itself to commercial glatt which you find something there and maybe we can take it maybe we can't. People woke up to that. That's not what we're looking for. We want nothing on the lung. Okay we'll give you Beis Yosef. The demand for Beis Yosef was overwhelming. All of a sudden the market is flooded with Beis Yosef. What's going on here? I had the opportunity to speak to one of the rabbonim machshirim and he explained to me not every Beis Yosef is the way I explained it. Vos heist? What's the makor Beis Yosef? It's from the acheinu haSephardim they have their masorah. And according to their masorah you can do certain things and you can accept certain things and certain sirchos you could accept it according to their masorah. I'm not familiar with it but this is the way it was explained to me. So according to their masorah this is called Beis Yosef. Oh we could go with their masorah and call things Beis Yosef. I looked at him I said that's what you're doing? We're talking about yungeleit we're talking about people who are choreid lidvar Hashem they don't want anything and you're giving you're saying I'm only giving it to a masorah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's like a chumra habah lidei kula because not only that if you would try and sell kitniyos on Pesach and not put on it Sephardim only try that it doesn't work. R’ Zvi Fishbane: So mimmiela that's what's happening basically right now. I'm not saying all the machshirim have this lenient standard but if you find a influx of Beis Yosef meat in the market and on the shelf you have to be choshesh for it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Choshesh for what? What practically? R’ Zvi Fishbane: That they're not using the standard that you want but rather a standard let's say that this acheinu haSephardim have a masorah for and they would take certain things off the lung. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So are you better off not buying Beis Yosef or is that what you're insinuating? R’ Zvi Fishbane: I'm not saying what better off what to do. I'm telling you everyone has to go and determine what where the meat is coming from what they want have be educated and follow accordingly. I'm not here to. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But if people who are not shochtim they're not experts at shechita they don't know the minutiae of or they don't know the details so what should someone do? If they want to be machmir betachlis hahiddur they want to get the? R’ Zvi Fishbane: There is a standard in the slaughterhouse today it's called Shaish Beis Yosef Shaish. So the sellers are developing what Beis Yosef is this is for the hamon am but the Shaish means Shaish is the highest standard Beis Yosef highest standard and there is a they do mark that but the question how much can you get? Shaish you can't play around with. Once you're calling something Shaish it means it's complete. It's perfect. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's perfect. So the question is if you're able to get that upon your request or not depending on the. And obviously you might have to pay the price for it because if well I'm not going yeah it's gonna cost perhaps more depending on what the market could supply. Or else this community they keep it for themselves. Let's say you have a certain community that has their own shechita they're rest assured they're going to take care of their own community before although like you say they can get a better price. So you mentioned acheinu hasfaradim. When you're referring to our Sephardic brethren with regard to Beis Yosef and standards of shechita, are you talking about all Sephardim, are you talking about certain segments of Sephardim, if you could clarify that? R’ Zvi Fishbane: I'm, well let's put it this way, I know that Hacham Rabi Ovadia was very makpid in what you call Beis Yosef. This is what we were saying was shaish Beis Yosef. He wouldn't settle for anything less and that's the way he instructed his talmidim and his tzibur. But there are other mesoras. I'm not familiar, I didn't go personally, I didn't interview other people, but this is what we're told in the industry, that there are machshirim from acheinu hasfaradim that said in that's the they have a different mesora and this is what they're transmitting and telling our machshirim who are copying that standard and giving using that as a standard for Beis Yosef. So it's not necessarily by everyone. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's only by certain ones. Now, to clarify also, tell me if I'm right about categorizing like this. Our whole conversation here is about a mehadrin level. We're talking about those who desire the highest level of purity in shechita. So we shouldn't mislead people. We're talking about people who want Beis Yosef because it's a higher level. And within Beis Yosef what you're saying is because there became such a high demand for Beis Yosef, so whatever the providers of meat have found ways for the meat to be considered Beis Yosef. So we're talking about within that realm of mehadrin, what is mehadrin, what may be mehadrin min hamehadrin and things of that sort, if you could elaborate on that? Exactly. R’ Zvi Fishbane: I just want to explain before the shechita standards have definitely been improved. The quality, the standard of the shochet himself that should be on a ben Torah-dik level at least. I know by the Chassidish communities they have to meet their standards as being a representative of their community and a representative of Torah and what they stand for. 100%. It's on a but to say that it's not acceptable, chas veshalom, everything is beautiful according to but I'm just bringing out this nekuda because the demand is so great as compared to years before, so this demand has brought them to want to supply the tzibur and in that nekuda the hiddur demand has lessened the standard that people may want to accept. But it's 100% there's no problem, it's 100% beautiful kosher shechita on all the basically in all the machshirim today and it's a kavod for the tzibur that the machshirim are well aware of the to keep everything on a higher standard with higher chumras and aderaba yochlu anavim veyisbau. Right. So, you know, we like to provide a takeaway for those who listen and watch Kashrus Awareness, let's talk Kashrus. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And so I'd like to distill everything that you said into perhaps a practical takeaway. If someone wants the highest level of shechita today, so a two-part question: should they look specifically for Beis Yosef and if they should, how do they determine that it's the highest level of Beis Yosef? What would you say? R’ Zvi Fishbane: I would say basically learn through the sugya. No, basically I would... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No, on a serious note, people are not necessarily able to learn through the sugya. Those who learn Chullin in Daf Yomi may have a little more knowledge of what we're talking about, but on a serious note, if someone really wants the highest level, what should they look for? R’ Zvi Fishbane: So basically what I'm saying is since the standards differ from one community from one shlachtois from one hechsher to the other, it would be a responsibility of the rav of a community to be able to advise his tzibur accordingly. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Aha. So you go to your rav and you say to your rav I want the highest level of shechita, he'll tell you which specific shechita, which store, which shlachtois and so on. Yes, I would think that should be the derech, yes. Rabbi Fishbane, thank you for being here. R’ Zvi Fishbane: It's been my honor. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's a zechus to be able to sit with you and on behalf of all those who have benefited from your dedication and devotion to the world of shechita for half a century, we say thank you, thank you for enhancing the world of kashrus as you have and for all your wonderful avodas hakodesh, thank you so much.

The ABC's of Food Delivery With recent reports of kosher consumers accidentally receiving food from non-kosher establishments, awareness of proper food-delivery procedures has never been more important. Rabbi Yitzchok Hisiger speaks with Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator at the cRc and Executive Director of AKO, about the halachos of chasimos, delivery services, and protecting the integrity of kosher food from restaurant to doorstep. Whether you order through an app or pick up takeout yourself, this episode contains practical guidance every consumer should know. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the cRc of Chicago. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Yehuda Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator at the cRc of Chicago. Rabbi Fishbane, how are you? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Baruch Hashem, thanks for having me. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's always a pleasure to have you here. Today we're here to discuss a very, very important topic, something we'll call a davar ha'omed al haperek, something of practical relevance now because of various stories that have made it to the news, specifically people who have ordered food from what they thought were kosher establishments and it ended up being non-kosher establishments, whether they confused the name, location, whatever it might have been, unfortunately people ordered treif and it came to their house, they didn't realize, they ate it, they consumed it, terrible stories. These are stories that rightfully make headlines and draw people's attention and that's what we're here for. We're here for Kashrus awareness so we'd like to address this topic today and get your input and insight into what people could do to be better informed and know what to do in certain circumstances. So let's start with what people should know, the aleph beis of receiving food deliveries. If you're ordering food from an establishment and are there protective measures that should be taken? Give us some guidance. R’ Sholem Fishbane: So that's a great point about protective because Chazal made siyagim, they made protective and Chazal were concerned with hachlafa, with switching around and they gave us halachos to protect the integrity of the Kashrus of the food and I think you're 100 percent right, these are terrible stories and for every one we hear there's a few that we don't hear about. And really it starts and stops with the halachos of chosamos, of seals, of protecting the food that you when you get it and this goes for whether it's not just the delivery services that you're referring to, even if you order straight up from a kosher restaurant but the person they're sending with, the halacha is if he's not a shomer Shabbos, whether even if he's not a goy, but even if he's a Yid but he's not a shomer Shabbos, he loses ne'emanus, you need to have a seal before you're allowed to eat it. That's the halacha, it's very clear. If you go to a store and the entire store's not under hashgacha, maybe one part is, this part is, that part is, and you buy something off the shelf, the halacha is it needs a chasima before you're allowed to take it out. You go at work where there's a public refrigerator, you can't just leave your stuff there, there's a halacha. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's a great example. You send out the office secretary who's not a shomer Shabbos to pick up something, right away there's a halacha about this. R’ Sholem Fishbane: There's situations all of these are scenarios over and over and as you said... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And to clarify before you go further, this is a meforash halacha in Shulchan Aruch, right? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Meforash halacha in Shulchan Aruch. This is not a minhag, it's not a new found custom. It's not a new found and that's exactly the point of Kashrus awareness is we're so used to, baruch Hashem, Klal Yisrael's growing and we're eating and everything's kosher, but whoa, whoa, whoa, Chazal knew what they were talking about when they said these are the halachos. So exactly I think today we'll go through some of the very practical halachos and ways to make sure and that's the halacha you're allowed to eat beforehand. It's funny, I saw somewhere where in places where there's kosher restaurants, there are people that are not even Jewish that will davka order kosher food because if it comes in right, it comes in sealed. Why? Because they know that and there's been studies on this, 30 percent of the Uber drivers or the drivers are noshing on the fries as they come in. Right. So they like their food protected as well. So this is a real thing. So it's important to understand that these halachos and therefore let's start with how many chosamos, how many seals do you need? So it's actually a machlokes Rishonim of what are the reasons. Is it because you go with a more expensive item like Rashi says where you need two chosamos or you go it's more de'oraisa de'rabbanan which is the Rambam and that's how the Shulchan Aruch paskens de'oraisa versus... The d'oraisas therefore would be fish without skin, meat, if you're in the techeiles business, you know, that would be need two chasimos, d'rabbanan's like bread and cheese and pizza and cake. These things would need one chasima. In Shulchan Aruch it talks about what about non-mevushal wine, which be'etzem is a d'oraisa but the Taz says today it's it's switched over to d'rabbanan. These are various things, but let's go with how Shulchan Aruch calls it, you know, d'oraisa versus d'rabbanan, needing two versus one. Okay. So so what qualifies as a siman, right? So what qualifies as a siman is it it takes significant effort to duplicate it and it's difficult to open the package without breaking or tearing the closure, the tape, the packaging. It looks like it's like it's broken. So for example, I went to the store and I bought this potato salad, okay? The potato salad as you see, this is d'rabbanan, okay? And it had a nice CRC tape around it and I wanted to see what would happen if I tried to open it, and as you can see I ate it and it was very good, and I tried to see if I could open without breaking it, and look on the bottom. So you can see right away how it was, so the tape is still there but you see that somebody did something to it. It got squeezed, something's off, something's off. So the driver or whoever it is that might also want to will say, "Okay, you know, I'm not going to bother with this." This is what Chazal had in mind. It's very... so let's let's talk about some of these things. There could be zip ties, there could be staples, you can staple a thing where you can take... this is, this is a one valid chasima. Here's the, here's a receipt, okay, of of the guy's name and what I ordered and all of that, and what they'll do in a kosher restaurant is they'll they'll staple it on. So that's one chasima, right? And then what the what the mashgiach will tend to do is you'll see there'll be tape, they'll put tape, that would be a second chasima. Right. So that's a very good thing. Or they'll or they'll just do one with with the bill inside. That would be another way of doing it. Another way is you can do an atypical knot, obviously kosher tape, Hebrew writing. Sometimes we'll be run out of tape so we can write on a piece of paper, we can put a piece of regular masking tape, and we'll write our name in Hebrew, our names across it, so that if you if you try to open it, it will it will go through. Right. Holograms. You know, there is a concept called a siman muvhak. A siman muvhak is like to, even though it's one, but be'etzem like it's halachically like two seals. So for example, you know, if you go buy a cryovac pack of chicken from the shlachthouse. If you look at it, there's really just one one covering, even though it says kosher in two different places. That's called a siman muvhak, because most people that are delivering don't have cryovac machines on their belt to redo that. That's a siman muvhak. Pre-printed tape with kosher tape in it, that's voiding. In other words, if you peel it off, it will like rip. That would be also siman muvhak. So here, I brought two pizza boxes. Typical pizza box, right? It needs for sure one chasima. So if it just has the the company name on it without anything on it, that's not a chasima. Right. You can't accept that necessarily. If it has something like this, look at this. So easy, so easy to open. The way it's supposed to come is, you can see the tape is wrapped around once. For me to, for someone to try to open it, they would ruin the they would ruin the box, exactly. Now there are many times you'll find a product, all it will have is the company name on top of it. Lechiora, this doesn't mean anything because, you know, anyone could open it, you know, same over here, you know, Miriam's cookies, you know, this this doesn't do much. Now the proper way therefore to to do, let's say you're buying something like a meat sandwich, it needs like a crisscross. You need to have, this is considered two, that's considered a double chasima. A double chasima. So these are the many many examples of how how these things come out and and really it's it's critical for us to teach our children, for the schools to teach the students, what qualifies as a chasima, what doesn't qualify, and therefore there's no such thing as, "Oh, I only have to worry about it like when I order something on online," but it's anytime you go shopping, let's educate the consumers of what's considered a good chasima, what's not, and which products need two and which products need one. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. So we mentioned two chasimos, let's say meat, poultry, fish, things like that would need two chasimos. What are some of the items that would need one chasima? Would it be baked goods? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Baked goods, yeah, anything from a bakery. bread or anything like that, anything with cheese, which is, you know, d’rabbonon, milk, you know, I don't know if you order something from a Dunkin' Donuts, the kosher one versus the non-kosher, and it's a coffee, you know, that would be one chosimah or a Starbucks or, you know, that type of thing. Almost everything that doesn't have in it meat, fish, poultry, and those types of things, d'Oraisas, then that would need one chosimah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What happens in a scenario where someone does their due diligence, they order from a place that they know is certified, it comes, the order comes, they look at the bag, they look at the package and they see there's something off, either it's missing the seal or the seal seems tampered? What do they do? Is there any way to salvage the food at that point? R’ Sholem Fishbane: So that's a great question, and we get this all the time where someone will call our office and say, I'm downtown, I ordered from one of the establishments and it didn't come with a... you know, I want to tell you something interesting. I asked the kosher restaurants, why don't you make it a policy every single time that anyone comes for a takeout food, it has to be chosum automatically? Right. They said, 'cause they get upset with us. Most people that walk in want to make sure we have enough ketchup packets and forks and knives. Don't seal it over. I need to see what you put in there. Was it the right order? Oh, that's a very interesting point. Very interesting point. So therefore we don't do it, and you know, unless we know for sure that it's... you know, we try, but when there's pressure at a restaurant, lunch hour, forget it. Oh, forget it. Sure. So what do... so we get this call all the time. So there is a concept in halacha called tviyas ayin. So tviyas ayin means that if a ne'eman kashrus can tell you, I can give a shvua this is... that that food is kosher, that is acceptable. So we do this, you know, the guys downtown, he's starving, there's a convention, three-day convention, he finally got something kosher. We'll have him take a picture of the food and or maybe even a livestream to the mashgiach in the restaurant who will look around and say, I can identify that is exactly what we sent out. Aha. That's called tviyas ayin. And tviyas ayin works across the board. Even in your own home. You go out and there's someone working in your home, you know, in the kitchen or in the home that's not Jewish or not shomer Shabbos, that's the halachos basar she-nisalam min ha-ayin. So if you have a tviyas ayin on the food, that works as well. But that would be the primary way to get it to fix up something that came in that didn't have proper chosimos. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Would you say that a classic case of tviyas ayin for a homeowner who's not a kashrus expert, doesn't necessarily know how the food is prepared is perhaps, I'm just asking as a suggestion, if someone always orders from the same place and they know the way the food is usually presented and now they got the same order that they usually order but it didn't have the seal? Is that enough of a tviyas ayin because they know what it usually looks like? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Yeah, the tviyas ayin can be on both sides of the aisle. It could be if you are, you know, fries are fries, and that's easier. Or even a... you can make the argument that a pie of pizza kind of will look... but if it's a certain knish, a meat knish that you like getting, and the way it's done, I recognize this from this the way they grill it, the way they... yeah, that would be tviyas ayin as well. Obviously, as we said, let's educate ourselves in chosimos that we don't have to come onto what-ifs, but of course there are ways to salvage if something doesn't work the way it's supposed to. But again, we... I think it would go without saying, we would advise someone in any scenario if they have a kashrus professional they could consult, a rov, they should always do so if they can to be sure. Right. And if I could make a suggestion or a plea, as I said earlier, the schools should have some sort of education. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Education, right. Of what's called a chosimah so that everyone, no matter where they are, they could be in the most metropolitan frum area versus vacationing in who knows where, it's the same halachos and therefore they should be educated. So we thank you for the education that you brought us and to the public, and continue to have hatzlacha in all you do. Thank you.

On this episode of Let’s Talk Kashrus, Rabbi Yitzchok Hisiger is joined by Rabbi Dovi Goldstein, Managing Director of Kosher SA, for a fascinating look into the world of kosher safaris in South Africa. From luxury five-star lodges with sealed kosher kitchens and mashgichim flown in on demand, to self-drive family safari adventures with coolers and portable braais, Rabbi Goldstein explains how travelers can experience the African wilderness without compromising on kashrus. The conversation explores the unique challenges and opportunities involved in certifying safari environments deep in the jungle, far from civilization. Along the way, listeners get an inside look at one of South Africa’s most remarkable and unexpected kosher industries. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Dovi Goldstein, MD at Kosher SA, that South Africa. Thank you, Rabbi Goldstein for being here. R’ Dovi Goldstein: Thank you so much, it's a great pleasure. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now there is another, there is another famous Rabbi Goldstein from South Africa, that's the Chief Rabbi, which you're not yet. R’ Dovi Goldstein: I'm not the Chief Rabbi. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You're the other Rabbi Goldstein from South Africa. R’ Dovi Goldstein: That's right and it's a privilege because I shared an office or the back of an office with him, but we're not actually related, but he is a dear mentor and friend. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But it's good to literally have you here from Johannesburg, South Africa here on the East Coast to be able to do this interview and conversation. So you head the organization in South Africa, the Kashrus organization called Kosher SA, Kosher South Africa. That's right. You're the MD which is the Managing Director. And today we'd like to talk to you about the topic of Kashrus and Safaris. First of all, for those of our listeners who don't know what a safari is, tell us what a safari is and then you'll discuss how to certify a safari. R’ Dovi Goldstein: Fantastic. So a safari's a broad term. Generally it means that you're going into a wild place, and it's a really wild place, so it's not a manufactured wild place, it's not a zoo. It's wild and things happen in the way that Hakadosh Baruch Hu created in the beginning of time. Nothing's changed in many of these places. And the idea is to go there and to just be part of nature and to view nature, obviously in the safety of your own vehicle or of a safari vehicle, because these animals will kill you. So there's the big five, lions and leopards, buffaloes, elephants, etc. And the point is that you're going into a very natural environment that is undeveloped, some places there's never been development, so it hasn't even been rehabilitated. And it's just a very magical place and some of these places are enormous, like the Kruger National Park which is right by our doorstep, four hours away from Johannesburg by car, and people go there because it's just a phenomenal experience and for many people it's a bucket list experience in their lives, people spend time there. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So people go on vacation to safaris and they spend several days at a time in a safari environment, they'll stay in a hotel or something of that sort. R’ Dovi Goldstein: Absolutely. So people would go there for a week at a time or for three days at a time, four days at a time, some are ten days at a time. There's some, we've met an American couple, Jewish American couple that comes here for three months. They're retired, they spend three months on safari every single year. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Really? R’ Dovi Goldstein: Which is just phenomenal, but it is something which is remarkable that a week on safari often feels like you've been away for a month or for two months because you're just in such a different framework and your mind's changed that you come out of there and you just feel rejuvenated. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow, that must be why people do that. You're right. But what Kashrus complications are there when people go to a safari? First of all, what are you certifying there? R’ Dovi Goldstein: So there's a couple different ways to do it. So let's call it right at the top, there's some very expensive safaris which are pretty much geared to the American market or to the European market and these are very exclusive safaris. I went to go and check one out a number of years ago and I always do my research beforehand, why do you want us and I went onto their website and it said their room was like, I don't know, five thousand dollars a night or something like that. But then it said take a suite, fine, not so unusual. Then it said take a corner for like five suites, and then it was like no, take the whole place for like whatever it was, a hundred thousand dollars a night and I said to the guys, I said who's taking that? They said no, when stars come, they always take the whole facility. So that's the highest end. So we've got about eight safari lodges is what they called that have a Kosher certified kitchen. So that kitchen's locked all year round. Wow. And only when it's booked for a Kosher consumer, you fly in a Mashgiach, we open the locks, we break the seals, all the food is flown in and it's very gourmet. So that's the highest level of safari. But let's talk there's a whole gamut, when we go on safari we obviously, living there we don't go on such a safari like that. We'll go what's called a self-drive safari. So you're staying in a vehicle, you're staying in a resort, you're bringing your own food. We do this as a family once or twice a year, which is a great Bracha and it's just incredible to be part of that kind of thing. There's no one driving you, we're driving ourselves in our own vehicles and it's just a very magical experience, very close to nature and just very close to something very real. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So if you're not on the high end and you're on what I would call the low end and you go yourself in your vehicle, do you need and could you get Kosher food? R’ Dovi Goldstein: So what's remarkable about South Africa is that besides for meat, and let's say Pas Yisroel, and wine, the penetration of Kosher products throughout South Africa is incredible. Incredibly accessible. So you can literally go with a cooler box of meat, and you know, like Kiddish wine or whatever you want, and everything else you can buy in the villages or the towns around these safari areas. So you don't actually need to prepare so extensively. There's plenty of things to buy. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Which we'll discuss in a separate conversation about South Africa in general and the kashrus there. But this is more about the safaris. Now the bulk of the safari supervision that you're talking about are these high-end type of arrangements where someone might be paying $5,000 a night for a room? R’ Dovi Goldstein: So the high-end ones where you are having a mashgiach there, those are high-end. There is also like a middle tier where it is not you know $2,000 or $3,000 or $4,000 a night. And they could have a kitchen that is kosher certified, obviously we'd have to send a mashgiach. But there's many ways to do it. And as I said, it's pretty incredible that you can go there fully immersed, you know, we're talking about many miles away from any civilization and have a gourmet experience. Experience. Yeah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Have you ever served as a mashgiach in that environment or have you only kind of overseen the operations? R’ Dovi Goldstein: I've overseen it but I have been a few times with training of the staff. So it's not an official trip, right? So I've been there for a night or two nights and we train the staff. Unfortunately, I don't do it enough. When I took on the role, I said this is going to be what I'm going to be doing, you know what I mean? Sounds very attractive. Very attractive. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time. I've got a great RC, Rabbi Alon Joseph. He travels to these places probably every month. He's training, he's meeting with guests, he's meeting with new lodges. We're trying to expand this. We believe it's one of the greatest products that South Africa has to export. Right. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That no one else really could offer, right? You're saying eight lodgings that you have in the vicinity of the safaris in South Africa. And these are all about four hours from Johannesburg? R’ Dovi Goldstein: Let's say between four and six hours. But at these very high-end places, people are flying in private jets and they're going, they've often got a private landing strip. So people don't even come to Johannesburg sometimes, they fly directly in and it's just a remarkable experience. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: By the way, after this episode, get ready for an uptick in reservations. R’ Dovi Goldstein: That's what we're hoping, right? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Before we close the conversation, what would you say because it's a very, very unique arrangement, very, very different than certifying a more conventional environment, what would you say is the biggest kashrus challenge in producing that type of service? R’ Dovi Goldstein: So a place that has a dedicated kitchen is generally pretty easy because it's a kitchen, it's all set up, it's totally kosher, it's locked up, milk, meat, separate milk, meat, everything. And these places because they're so high-end and five-star do things properly. So nothing, there's no shortcuts. So actually to certify a safari at the highest end is not difficult. But I think it is important to note, is that because money's not an issue? Money's not an issue. Exactly. So they'll have the best quality cutlery and stoves and they're not afraid to do that because their guests are paying so much. But I think what is important to highlight is that let's call it middle-end and even let's call it lower-end, there are so many other ways to do it. And obviously it can get challenging if you don't have a mashgiach there. We wouldn't certify such a place. But there's plenty of ways to also go on safari without it having to be high-end. As I say, many families, most South African families travel to safari and they, they bring their own food. And they bring their own food or they buy food in the vicinity. They bring their own braai—we call it a braai, you call it a barbecue. They bring their own barbecue, they bring their own pots and pans, and it's not very difficult to have a safari and what I would like to say is people shouldn't be afraid when they see the high-end prices to think you know that's the only way to do it. There's plenty of other ways to do it and with research and obviously with AI today, there's many ways to do it and it's something which I would believe almost anyone could achieve if they put their mind to it and they'll find a price point which works for them. Or I imagine they could reach out to you and your office, right, for information and guidance. Absolutely. And if they go onto our website which is koshersa.co.za or za, koshersa.co.za. Dot za. We call it a zebra, right, a zebra, you call it a zebra. And if they go onto our website they can find it and obviously they can contact us. We have many people especially during the vacation time that join our WhatsApp lines and join our communication channels and they can ask us for advice and we'd be so happy to help them find a way to do it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay Rabbi Goldstein, this is a fascinating topic. Thank you so much for being here and we look forward to speaking to you.

Part 2 of the sous-vide, can it be used on shabbos or yomtov? Rabbi Dovid Cohen - Administrative Rabbinical Coordinator at the cRc, fills us in on potential shabbos issues with using a sous-vide. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Welcome to Let's talk Kashrus, presented by the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am joined by Rabbi Dovid Cohen, administrative Rabbinic coordinator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Rabbi Cohen, how are you? R’ Dovid Cohen: I am good, thank you. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So we previously spoke about the Sous-vide device or machine, and you gave a fascinating overview of what this device is. Today I'd like to hear from you about the halachic ramifications of the Sous-vide in relation to Hilchos Shabbos about leaving food in a Sous-vide on Shabbos. Let's talk about that. R’ Dovid Cohen: Okay, so before we start, I have to say this. It's obvious that you can't put food in on Shabbos. Okay, you're not allowed to cook on Shabbos, so it's obviously you can't put like as you said, the question is, can I put in food before Shabbos? Okay, so there's two potential issues that we could think about. The first is called Shehiya. Shehiya means is the Chachomim said you're not allowed to put food in to cook before Shabbos into a into a fire or wherever it is because they were concerned that if you do that, you might end up wanting the food to cook a little faster and you'll adjust the flames to make the food cook a little faster. So they said you can't put food in, so which of course is what we're doing, we're putting food in to cook. Now there are several exceptions to when you are allowed to. We all do that. We put in food, we have food that's hot for Shabbos. So there's some exceptions to that rule, and let's think about those different exceptions and whether they apply. Okay, three main exceptions. One is if something called if you have put in raw food. If you put in food that will for sure not be ready to eat on Friday night, there's no question it won't be ready, and it for sure will be ready on Shabbos morning, then the Shehiya doesn't apply. And it's logical because why would I adjust the flame? It won't be ready tonight anyhow, it will for sure be ready tomorrow. I have nothing to gain by adjusting the flame. So in some cases of Sous-vide, that's that's appropriate because if I have a food that takes twenty-four hours to cook, there's no way I can make it higher, it's not going to cook any faster in time for tonight, but by tomorrow it'll for sure be ready. That would be okay. But most Sous-vide is not like that. Most of it takes just a couple of hours and if I were to adjust the flame I could get it ready faster and it could be ready for tonight, so that won't help us. Okay, the other one which people are very familiar with is that if you have a blech, okay it's called grufa u-ketuma. You can leave food on the fire if you have a blech because the blech is a reminder don't adjust the flame. That's it's a reminder they don't touch this flame, you're not supposed to do that on Shabbos, so don't adjust it. Okay, that would be great, except how you going to make a blech on here? What are you going to do? Where are you going to put the blech? Where are you how you going to cover the fire? It doesn't there's no setup that could allow you to how would I cover this fire? The fire is in this rod, in this circulator. How how am I going to it's not realistically there's no way to do that. Okay, but what I can do is but the third answer the third solution will potentially help people. And that is if the food is cooked enough, I'll tell you what enough means in a second, if it's cooked enough then you're allowed to do that because the Chachomim said you know what, it's so it's cooked so well you don't have any need really to adjust it to make it a little better cooked than that you won't forget to do that on Shabbos. Okay, so the Rama says what we follow he says the minhag is to follow the opinion that says is it's enough if it's ke-ma'achal ben drosai. If it's passably edible, that's good enough to allow you to leave it on from before Shabbos. Ke-ma'achal ben drosai the Mishna Berura says we should do means half cooked. Well what do what does it mean half cooked? Excuse me for that we go to the Chazon Ish. Chazon Ish says when you want to decide something is how cooked it is, is it half cooked, look at the cook time. How long does it take to cook this food? After half that amount of time it's half cooked. Well in a regular piece of chicken I'm not sure how you do that, but in Sous-vide it's really easy because you put in the program how long you want it to cook for. You say cook this for four hours, okay you tell the machine cook it at this temperature for this many hours. So you just have to make sure you did it half before Shabbos. If your program is three hours then it's got to be hot already an hour and a half before Shabbos and then it'll have been half cooked, in which case you avoid the problem of Shehiya. The food is passably edible and therefore you there's no concern of Shehiya as long as you get it passably edible in this case means is half the time of the cook time. Okay so as I as we spoke about last time the Sous-vide machine you tell it the temperature you want it and once it hits that temperature it starts counting down. So as long as you hit that temperature and start the countdown half of the way before Shabbos then you're good. So let's say three hours you have to hit the temperature hour and a half before Shabbos and then it will be good enough. Got it. So that's as far as Shehiya. That's for the Shehiya part. Shehiya means we're not allowed to leave food in that's one problem. Okay, that's the that's one issue to deal with. The second issue is called Hatmanah. Hatmanah is that we're not allowed to take food even before Shabbos and wrap it up in a way that it'll get hotter because it's wrapped up. So like the classic case for us is if I have a hot water kettle a hot water urn and I don't I want it to be even hotter than it usually is, so I wrap it up with towels or some kind of, something around it. So I'm wrapping it up, I'm insulating it, and it gets hotter because there's a heating coil in it. That's called Hatmanah, in a way that makes it hotter, you're not allowed to do that from before Shabbos. Okay, if you wrap it up all the way. So you say, okay, what does it have to do with this? Where's that, where's the Hatmanah, where's the towels? I'm not doing any towels or something around, I'm not wrapping it up in anything. So here we come to a Taz, and the Taz says that if you put something, submerge something in water, that is Hatmanah. The water is the insulator, the water is insulating the food that's in there. Okay, it doesn't, when you think about it at first it doesn't seem like that, right? You think, you're thinking Hatmanah is like I put a blanket around it, that's Hatmanah. But he says no, Hatmanah is also, the water could be the Hatmanah also. Okay, so is that what's going on here? Remember, our meat is sitting there soaked in a pouch on the bottom in the water, so it's being, it's in the water. So is that Hatmanah? Now if that's Hatmanah, we're finished. We won't be able to use this on Shabbos. Okay, because Hatmanah, it doesn't help what we said beforehand about being mainly cooked and this and that, none of that's going to help us. So this question I didn't see people talking about it specifically, like written Tshuvos about specifically about Hatmanah for Sous Vide, but they talk about a very similar case. Okay, and let's see how it compares. And that is people want to put Kishka into their Cholent, and the Kishka is wrapped in foil. Right. So the question is, is it Hatmanah? Because the Kishka is being heated by the Cholent that's all around it. So before Shabbos I want to put it in. So I put the piece of Kishka into the Cholent and is it considered Hatmanah to put that in? So most people, most Poskim held that that was Mutar. But if we think about why they held it's Mutar we'll see it's not so clear that it's going to apply to Sous Vide also. Okay. One, some Poskim say the reason why it's Mutar is because the taste travels back and forth between the Cholent and the Kishka. It's just in a foil that you put into the Cholent for a reason, because you want it to get the taste of it. So it passes back and forth. Okay. And that's why it's Mutar, it's really part of the Cholent. Well, that doesn't work for Sous Vide because the, it's in a sealed pouch. There's no taste transferring back and forth between the meat and the water. No, that's not going to work. Okay. Other people said is well, it's Mutar because the foil that's around the, this is a very popular, people have said this. The foil around the Kishka is just there to hold it together, give it shape. You don't want it to disintegrate into the Cholent. So it doesn't count. Just ignore it. Pretend that there's no foil. Let's say there would be no foil, what would you say? Not Hatmanah, it's just cooking, it's just part of the Cholent. You don't say the potatoes are having Hatmanah, it's silly, it's just part of the Cholent. So it's just another piece of the Cholent over here. They said so the foil doesn't count. So they say here also the bag, the pouch is not for any special reason, the pouch is just to keep the water out. So what's the difference, the pouch keeps the water out and the foil keeps the Cholent out, it's the same idea. Same idea. But it's not really, I don't think that that's an accurate description because what does it mean? So the foil we won't count the foil. What's the end of the sentence? The foil doesn't count and therefore it's part of the Cholent. Right? That's the end of the sentence. The foil doesn't count so it's just part of the Cholent. Over here what? The bag doesn't count so it's part of the water? No. What do you mean it's part of the, the water's not cooking, the water is just the way you heat it up. The water is not, no one would dream that this meat is part of the water. No, even if you ignore the pouch, you can't say the meat is part of the water. That doesn't make, that doesn't work like that. But what we do have is there's a Tshuvah in Minchas Yitzchak about this question about the Kishka in the Cholent and he brings there from Dayan Westheim wrote to him, I'll tell you why I think it's Mutar and at the end of the Tshuvah Dayan Westheim says I think that you're right about what you said. And he said is, we're looking at this wrong. Hatmanah means is don't do something that is insulating a food. But when we think about the Dinim of Hatmanah there are several examples where we look at what the person had in mind. What were you trying to do when you did this? And I'll give you an example. The Din is you're allowed to take food and wrap it in foil and put it on top of a pot of food on Shabbos. Why isn't that Hatmanah? It's wrapped in the foil, the foil is this insulator. The answer is no, because the person put it on top of there, why'd he wrap it in foil? He wrapped it in foil to keep bugs out. He wrapped it in foil so they shouldn't get dirty. That's why he did it. He's not trying to do Hatmanah. So we creep into your mind and we say why are you doing this? You did this because you were trying, you weren't trying to do Hatmanah, you weren't trying to insulate it and make it hotter, no, you had some other purpose in mind. So over here he says we see that we can creep into your mind and decide is this Hatmanah or not. So Dayan Westheim said was, he said is why is the person putting it in here? He's trying to cook. He's not trying to do Hatmanah. Hatmanah is I warm it up, I keep it warm. That's not what I'm doing, I'm trying to cook food. That's obviously what the person is trying to do. adding heat to it. No, he's cooking it. Cooking is not hatmanah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay, so that's what Dayan Weiss said, and Dayan Weiss liked that chiluk, R’ Dovid Cohen: yes. In which case there would not be a concern of hatmanah. He's saying is you not have to be fancy and think we don't care about the foil, whether it's a taste traveler, he just says what the person's doing is obviously cooking. He's not he's not insulating, he's not warming, he's not getting heat into this thing. No, he's cooking it. It's obvious that's what he's doing. So he says that would be a reason to muttar, in which case, if you follow that opinion, then it's then it'll be perfect, there's no hatmanah issues. Just the just the shehiyah part of it which we said before. Okay. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Thank you so much. R’ Dovid Cohen: Sure. Great to be here.

Continuing the technology series, we are moving on to the sous-vide and the halachik challenges that arise with it. Rabbi Dovid Cohen - Administrative Rabbinical Coordinator at the cRc, fills us in on potential kashrus issues with a sous-vide.   https://askcrc.org/item/Keilim/968499 R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus  presented by the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am joined by Rabbi David Cohen, administrative rabbinical coordinator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. How are you Rabbi Cohen? R’ Dovid Cohen: I'm doing fine thank you. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Today we'd like to discuss a very very unique item, a unique machine that people use called the sous-vide and its halachic ramifications. First let's talk about what a sous-vide is. What is it? How would you describe it? R’ Dovid Cohen: Okay, it's a really unusual way to cook. Instead of taking your piece of chicken or piece of meat and sitting it in the oven at 350 degrees, you put it into this basically into a water bath. Okay, now that sounds really strange, what in the world? So before, you don't just put it right into the water bath, you put it into a bag. It's called sous-vide because that bag you suck all the air out of it. It really means under vacuum. So you suck all the air out of this bag and you put it into the water. So the bag keeps it from getting waterlogged, okay, and you put the meat into the bag and dunk it into the water. And then what you're going to do is you're going to heat up that water to just the right temperature to cook the meat. Which is to say is you've probably heard, the government will tell you when you're cooking a piece of meat it's ready when the meat thermometer tells you it reaches 145 degrees, 165 degrees, whatever it is. That's the internal temperature because the cooking does something to the meat, whatever it does to make it edible. And when it's ready, it's gotten up to a certain temperature. So basically you program your machine to heat the water to exactly that temperature. So that means is instead of at 350 in your oven, it's always cooking at 150 or 160 or whatever temperature you cooked. So it's really slow. Cooks at a really slow temperature, but you can't burn your food because it can never get hotter than what it's supposed to be. And it takes really hours and hours and hours to cook the food. Instead of an hour it could take three four hours. And again the idea is to be able to cook it more accurately. More accurately, more evenly, without burning it. And because it's in the bag you don't lose any of the moisture, everything stays inside of it. And it has a certain kind of cooking that people appreciate. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Have you ever tasted meat from a sous-vide? R’ Dovid Cohen: I have not. Sorry. Sorry, I'm just the rabbi side of it, not the chef side of it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I'm curious to hear what the difference between the taste between a sous-vide and a conventional oven is. R’ Dovid Cohen: You have to ask somebody else. Sorry I'm not the guy to answer that question. Okay, but so that's what people do. And it's a kind of cooking. It's not the kind of thing like oh gosh we're going to eat in 15 minutes. You have to be well planned in advance and it takes many hours to cook it. Like there are things that will take a roast could take 24 hours to cook. A piece of meat might take three four hours to cook. So it's a slow process and somehow it makes food that tastes whatever it is and some people appreciate that. Okay, so first now that we understand what that machine is, I'm sorry, I forgot to describe the main part of the machine. There's something called an immersion circulator. And it looks, basically when I told you put the meat into a big bucket of water, into a pot, into a container, that's any container you want to use. But the real what makes it work is this immersion circulator. And that is it's a rod, you could see it here in the animation, it's a rod that sticks into the water and has in it a heating coil so it heats up the water and has a fan or an impeller on the bottom of it to circulate the water. So it, you program it on the top, you push in I want it to be at 145 degrees for six hours. Okay, and that's what it'll do. It'll heat up the water, once it gets the water to temperature, it'll clock down from you said six hours and then after six hours it'll turn itself off. So what it does is that circulator circulates the water and keeps all the water at exactly the right temperature. Exactly the temperature you picked and I forgot what I said 150, that's what it does, 150 degrees for the entire six hours. And the coil goes on and off just to you know keep it at the right temperature and this fan is spinning around keeping the water moving. And basically your meat sits there on the bottom in the bag or in the pouch and it does its cooking. Okay, so the first question people have about it is can I use it for milchigs  and fleishigs ? Okay, can I make in it something milchigs  and then something fleishigs ? Now there's not so much that people would make milchigs , but I guess people can. So the answer would be no they can't do that. And the reason is because although the food is inside a pouch, the food never touches the water. But the din  is that ta'am  passes through a kli also. So even though it's in a pouch, the ta'am  can pass through. So basically if I used it today for meat, then it became fleishig . And if I want to use it tomorrow for milchig , I wouldn't be allowed to. I could use it for fish which is a very is a popular thing. People use meat and fish. And that's because meat and fish you just can't cook together. But you could use the same pot as long as it's clean. So if today I put in meat, tomorrow I empty it out and I want to put in fish I could do that. But not milchigs  and fleishigs . Now that leads to another question which people have is okay I want to use it for milchigs  or more likely I want to use it for Pesach . Okay what can I do now? Can I kasher  this machine? You told me okay you told me don't use it for both, but what happens I want to kasher  it? What happens if I bought one or used one from someone who doesn't keep kosher ? So now I have a treif  one; okay, he used it for treif  meat. Can I kasher  it to be able to use it now for kosher  meat? So, I'm going to give you the short version of it. We have a shiur  on it, more complicated. We'll send people the link if they want to to hear the shiur that there is about this. But the thing is like this: at first you look at it and you say, of course I could kasher  it. It's meant to go into boiling hot water. It's meant for hot water. That's the whole thing is designed for that. Right. So easy enough. Boil up water. Boil up water and dunk it in. Okay, now you have to be a little, if I could use the word generous, which is to say is you're supposed to go the water up till this high, you have to kasher  a little more than that because water splashes around a little bit. Right. But and you can't get the very top of it because the electronics probably wouldn't be able to handle the water of it. But it's meant to be in water. So you say, easy enough, easy enough. I'll boil up a pot of water, I'll dunk it in and and so on, everything's perfect. I'll kasher  it. That sounds like the easy part. Right. But here's the complication. Everything's got it, you always there's always going to be a catch, right? And the catch is that the Rema  says things that have little cracks and crevices you can't kasher . Well, if you look at, if you pick up your sous vide, this immersion circulator, you'll see there's a zillion cracks and crevices. There's the holes where the water comes into, there's the fan, there's a heating coil, all that all stuck all together. It's all kinds of cracks and crevices where it's really hard to get it clean. Okay. So that's the question. Can I kasher  this if I can't get it clean? The Rema  says if you have things like that, you can't kasher them at all. So that's our that's the potential issue. Okay, well what's, so okay, what's the other side? The other side is that wait a second, no food ever touches this machine. Remember the food's... It's only ta'am , right? Yeah, the food's in a bag. The food's in a pouch. Okay, so I mean it happens that a pouch breaks but basically the food's in a pouch. So if the food's in a pouch, how's food ever going to get stuck in those little holes? Water is going to go in there but water's going to go in and out. Nothing's going to happen with the water. So on that's one side to say, come on guys, nothing's going to get stuck in the little holes because there's only water passing through the holes. That's all that's in there. Okay. But then there's another side. The other side is well, people who cook food don't cook it in a lab setup. What I mean is just because the food's in the pouch doesn't mean they don't get greasy hands touching the outside of the pouch and getting food on the outside. It doesn't mean that there aren't things, grease and all kinds of stuff going on in there. And there's another side which is imagine if food actually did get caught in there. You wouldn't even begin to be able to clean it out. It's hopeless. It's totally hopeless. It's not even like something with little holes that you could try. You can't even try over here. So people take different approaches. At the CRC we tell people that they could kasher  it from treif  to kosher  but not for Pesach . Pesach where chametz  is b'mashehu  they shouldn't, they shouldn't do that. But others would say is, come on, even for Pesach  you could do it because realistically no food gets into there. And the truth is also it's pretty hard to think of a case where someone would make chametz  in there. It's mainly for meat and fish. Right. We can come up with cases. You wouldn't believe there are people who actually bake cakes in there. Oh really? It sounds strange as it is, but yes there's such a thing, people make cakes in there. But also, but imagine if you cut a knife, cut with a chametz-dik  knife, you may cut food, cut an onion in there, so it could be chametz  in there. But so CRC tells people not to do it for Pesach  but for year round, we tell people they could kasher it. Okay. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Any final thought on the sous vide? R’ Dovid Cohen: On this part of it, no. No. For the, for the kashering and these kind of thing I think I think we covered it. Okay. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Thank you so much.

Today's interview focuses on a problem that many people face when kashering for Pesach. New-age technology = new-age problems. How do you kasher glass stovetops? Can they be kashered at all? What about induction stovetops? Let's hear what Rabbi Dovid Cohen - Administrative Rabbinical Coordinator at the cRc has to say on this timely topic.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus presented by the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Dovid Cohen, administrative rabbinical coordinator at the cRC, the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Rabbi Cohen, how are you? R’ Dovid Cohen: Amazing. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's great to have you back. It's been a little while since we did an episode together. Today we'd like to discuss a very fascinating but very practical topic that's important to many people, especially as we approach Pesach  and that is glass stovetops. So tell us the halachic  status of glass stovetops as it relates to kashering  them. Can that be kashered  and if yes how? R’ Dovid Cohen: Right so that's a really good question because we're Ashkenazim  and Ashkenazim  don't kasher  glass. We know we don't kasher  glass. So your first look at it you say no this is impossible I can't possibly kasher  this material. So in order to answer that question we have to back up a drop. Okay why don't we kasher glass? Sephardim  consider glass doesn't absorb at all. So it's a chumra . The Rama  says it's a chumra that like some shitas  that it's a little bit like cheres . A little bit we treat it like a kli cheres  something made of ceramic or porcelain that we can't kasher  that the Torah says you can't kasher so glass is a little bit like that because it's made in a similar way. Okay the way they manufacture it is similar. So since it's a chumra  the Rama  says some place else whenever we're kashering  things as with libbun  as a chumra we can do a lighter kind of libbun . We call it libbun kal . You get away with not as strong of a libbun  as you would really require if it was cheres . If it was cheres  you have to put it into its burning super hot you know a thousand degrees. But for this you can get away with a little since it's only a chumra to treat it like that you get away with a lesser temperature. Okay now that lesser temperature is he describes it as kash nisraf  the amount of heat that would cause a piece of straw to burn on the other side. It's so hot but it's not as hot as libbun.   libbun  I said thousand it's probably 850 degrees but you don't have to have that hot but you still have to have like about 450 500 degrees really hot that it could burn a piece of straw on the other side. So when we as Ashkenazim  are used to saying we don't kasher glass that means we don't kasher  glass with hag'ala  with hot water. If we do libbun kal  if we heat it up with enough temperature to make it kash nisraf  to make it that hot that we can kasher like that. So that's our goal. We want to kasher  it by making it as hot as kash nisraf . We're not we can't do hag'ala  you can't pour boiling water on it like on I don't know your stone counter but you can do it by making it kash nisraf . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay we know there's a principle of k'bolo kach polto . So how does that apply to glass where we're you know how does that determine what type of kashering  you could do for a glass? R’ Dovid Cohen: Okay so k'bolo kach polto  is used for two purposes. It's to decide which type of kashering  it needs does it need libbun  or hag'ala  like that type and within those what the level of it. Let's say if I only poured something chometz  onto my counter I can kasher  it by pouring something onto it. So within the levels I can choose that. But what when I'm in the when I require libbun  like on a glass I need libbun  you don't get to choose what temperature it is. You can't say as I'll do a little higher or lower based on how hot the food was when it goes in. That doesn't work. In hag'ala  it does. In hag'ala  if it was only 160 degrees I could kasher  with 160 degrees but in libbun  kind of things and even libbun kal  it doesn't work like that. So whatever the temperature was that's the temperature. Okay so what we're our goal here is to get libbun kal  we want to get it heated up. So you say I know how to get it heated up it's easy it's got electric coils underneath it so you turn it on it's gonna get nice and hot. Okay so that brings us to another complication and that's because there's another din  which is when we kasher  something and we make it hot let's say with in this case with heat with fire the fire has to be or the water has to be on the side where the food was not on the side where the fire was. So in this case where was the chometz  or the treif  that's on my glass counter? That was on the top part of it. Well where's the coil that I have? The coil that I have is underneath. The coil is underneath so usually let's say when you think about kashering  your counter by pouring boiling water onto it the chometz would have been on the counter and the water is going to be on the top of the counter so you're doing it the right way. Here the fire is underneath and the food was on the top. Okay so that's not the way to kasher . You can't kasher by putting heat on the wrong side. So some people argue back and they say no but for libbun it's different. Maybe with libbun  it's different and you don't you could have the fire on the wrong side. Okay now there's such a thing there's a machlokes achronim  about that but that machlokes  is about libbun gamur when you make something burning hot like that's even hotter and that's because they say is because there it's as if the thing is on fire itself the whole thing is on fire. But it doesn't work for libbun kal . So some people say it's okay it's only glass anyhow it's just a chumra  so it's okay even though the fire is a little on the wrong side some people get away with that. And some people say no, lema'aseh  you have the fire on the wrong side. Okay, so if you think like that, what should you do? What am I going to do? I have this, this is my stovetop, what am I supposed to do? So for that there's a solution and that is basically he says I'm not going to kasher  my stovetop. Okay, well how am I going to cook? What I'm going to do is I'm going to make sure my pots never touch the stovetop. And that's by using these disks. These disks are really made for a different kind of glass stovetop, I'll talk about that for a second afterwards, for an induction stovetop. And these are for induction stovetops, can only use certain kind of pots on them, ferromagnetic pots. So if you don't have that kind of pot in your house, you put this disk down and the disk takes the role of that. But for our purposes, you can buy these on Amazon, any place, Target sells them, everybody you can buy them. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What's this called? R’ Dovid Cohen: It's called an induction disk. It's just really for our purposes it's just a metal disk and the point is when you put this down on the stovetop, the pots that you have are not going to touch the stovetop. So I didn't kasher  my stovetop, you're right I didn't kasher it. Okay. But I didn't ever put the pot on, I never put the pot onto the stovetop. Right. Okay, so this works and you can put these down. Just a word of caution that if you think about what you're doing is you're leaving this on your stovetop, it's going to be burning hot. Okay. So you should not take this off, of course not with your hands. Okay. Even some people have burnt their gloves trying to take them off because they get so hot. And someone else told me, someone told me also they took it and they put it onto their counter, their counter was Formica and they melted, no I'm sorry, their Pesach  counters were covered with something plastic, they covered it, they put this down, it melted right through that. So anyhow, it comes with a little handle to lift it off so you don't have to touch the heat yourself and put it down someplace that can handle the heat. Okay. Now and it brings me to mention, I'll mention two other things. One is even the glass stovetops if you kasher  it by heating up the turning on the burners, it only kashers  right around those burners. The space in between doesn't get kashered . And one last thing was I mentioned quickly about the induction stovetops. Induction stovetops, I don't know if you're familiar with it, it's a more modern kind of stovetop and in it it's glass on top, but there's no coils underneath it. When you turn it on you don't see, it doesn't get hot at all. Okay. And it works through, it's not important how it works, it's something called induction. It makes your pot hot but it itself doesn't ever get hot. So those stovetops have no way to kasher  them. You can't get them hot, it just doesn't work, there's no way to get them hot. So for those you have to use these disks. That's the only way to do it. You will not have kashered it and you just put your pot on top of that. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Any final thoughts on this topic as regards to Pesach  or kashering  from kosher  to treif ? Any other thoughts? R’ Dovid Cohen: The induction, the only final thought is about the induction I'll just throw in. Induction has its own issues with Shabbos  and bishul akum  issues. In other words, if you think about it, an induction stovetop, when you pick your pot up actually the coil stops producing electricity. So it has Shabbos  questions, it has other complications. If a person has an induction stovetop... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Meaning turning it on is not going to help for if a goy ... R’ Dovid Cohen: Right, when you turn it on nothing happens, but if a goy  comes and puts food on, that's a bishul akum  problem. It's a Shabbos  issue also every time you put the pots on and off. So a person with an induction stovetop really needs to ask shailos . We were just talking about the kashering  part of it. They have to just think about it, it has other complications. But for a regular stovetop again, some people will do what we said, turn on the coils and that kashers the area right around them. Right. And other people are not comfortable with that and they just use these disks instead. Excellent. Thank you so much.

Part 3 of our Q&A series with Rav Shmuel Fuerst Dayan of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois to answer some of the recent questions that came in to us at Let's Talk Kashrus. This week's Q&A focuses on some hilchos shabbos issues.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let’s Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am honored to be joined by Rav  Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan  of Agudath Yisrael  of Illinois. Thank you Rav  Fuerst for joining us. We’re continuing our series here of shailos  that people have submitted to Let’s Talk Kashrus . So today we’d like to discuss various Shabbos  and Yom Tov  related shailos , Shabbos  and Yom Tov  scenarios. And the first question is, is raw meat or fish considered muktzah ? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: The Mechaber  says in Shin-Ches that raw meat is chazai l'umtza , you can eat it, it’s right to it, you could chew it. You’d have to chew it. L'maisa , the Aruch HaShulchan and Rav  Moshe, today people don’t eat raw meat, so memeila  all raw meats or chicken or fish is considered muktzah . And therefore you cannot metaltel  it, it has the din of muktzah machmas gufo , you’re not allowed to move it even l'tzorech gufo u'mekomo . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right, so the practical questions were, could it be moved within a fridge or freezer, especially very often you’re trying to get to other foods in the fridge or freezer, number one? And number two, let's say it falls out of the fridge or freezer, could I put it back in? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: Yes, right. Therefore, since it's a problem of muktzah , so a person before Shabbos , a woman before Shabbos she organizes the refrigerator and freezer to make sure in the front of the fridge are stuff that's ro'uy l'achila , so she shouldn't have a problem, and the stuff that's muktzah  should be in the back. And the same thing in a refrigerator also, the stuff that's muktzah  should be kept in the back so you shouldn't run into a problem moving, because to move on Shabbos it's muktzah . On Yom Tov  it would be muttar  because to get to the ochel , so on Yom Tov  there's a special halacha  it's okay, you're allowed to move muktzah  to get to the ochel . But on Shabbos it's a serious problem of muktzah . Therefore you should have all the raw meat and chicken in the back and the stuff like ice cream or cake what you have in the freezer and refrigerator keep in the front so you shouldn't run into the problem. If let's say by mistake you open the freezer, the freezer is full and chicken and chicken falls out, raw chicken falls out, raw meat, today raw chicken, raw meat is very expensive today, falls on the floor, and if you let it stay, and especially in the summertime, you let it stay on the floor it's going to melt and it's going to get ruined and so on. So there's a Mishnah Berurah  that brings down a machlokos Taz , Magen Avraham , and the Mishnah Berurah  is machmir . However, in the sefer   Shalmei Yehuda  he brings down from Rav Elyashiv that in a makom hefsed meruba  you could somich  on the shitah of the Taz  and you could pick it up and put it back into the freezer. And if you want to be machmir  like the Magen Avraham , the only thing you do is kil-achar-yad , because muktzah  is only muttar to move, it's muktzah machmas gufo , you're only allowed to move it kil-achar-yad . But Rav  Elyashiv is meikel  in a makom hefsed gadol  it’s expensive, then you're allowed to put it back into the freezer. Well what's the qualifications for hefsed gadol  by a yachid ? Each person is different. Some people, very wealthy people, if a piece of meat today costs twenty-five dollars means nothing to them, some people it's a supper. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay. Do we consider double-walled thermoses as a kli rishon  or a kli sheni ? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: It’s a kli sheni . A thermos bi'klal  is always considered a kli sheni and there’s no issur  of hatmanah . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay. A couple is on a Friday night walking tour in Rome, this is a real question, a couple’s on a Friday night walking tour in Rome and the guide says that she's Jewish but she carries a phone and a water bottle where there's no eruv . So here's the two questions: number one, could they continue the tour or must they stop because it's like they're causing this person who's a Yid  to be mechalel Shabbos ? But do they even have to believe her that she's halachically Jewish when she says so? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: It doesn't hurt to ask her. She says she's Jewish already, there's no reason why she should say it if she's saying it already. You should ask her how you know you're Jewish and sometimes they'll say yes, my father is Jewish, so then we know she's not Jewish. So you can ask her one or two questions and you can probably find out right away she's Jewish or not Jewish. If she's not Jewish certainly then there's no problem. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right, and if she says her mother's Jewish then she has ne'emanus  to say so. R’ Shmuel Fuerst: Yeah, for this much you have to tell her, listen, you cut the thing short, find some way it shouldn't be a chillul Hashem  and cut the tour short and that's it because you're causing her to carry on Shabbos . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. Okay, one final shaila  in this category for Shabbos , Yom Tov . Nowadays challahs  are much softer than they were in the times of Shulchan Aruch . Are we still required to make an indent before making the bracha ? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: It says in Shulchan Aruch  that when you wash, when you make a... Hamotzi , Lechem Mishneh , you should cut a little bit into the top of the challah  and then afterwards you cut. The reason why that's done because olden times the challos  were very, very hard, so it shouldn't be too big of a hefsek , so you cut it. Today, all challos  today are so soft, so this shayla was asked to Rav Moshe  and Rav Moshe  said you don't have to, today you don't have to make the indentation. Even though you see people still normally do, nothing wrong with doing it, nothing wrong with doing it. You're not making no, because some people say it's shalem , it's still shalem , still shalem , still shalem , so if one wants to do it, let them do it, let them continue doing it. It's still halacha , still halacha and shalem , right? Yeah, but you don't have to do it, it's not m'akeiv . But that was the reason why, why was because it was hard to cut, so you would start cutting before to make it easier, to make it easier. Okay.

So you booked a beautiful Airbnb… now what? In this episode of Let’s Talk Kashrus , Rabbi Sholem Fishbane - Kashrus Administrator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council, and Executive Director of AKO, walks us through the practical halachic realities of using an Airbnb kitchen. From stovetops and ovens to microwaves, Keurigs, sinks, and even barbecues — what can you use, what needs kashering, and what should you avoid altogether? Whether you're traveling for vacation, Yom Tov, or business, this Airbnb Survival Guide gives clear, practical guidance to help you stay kosher.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project and the CRC of Chicago. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator at the CRC of Chicago, the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you Rabbi Fishbane for joining us. Always a pleasure to see you. Today we'd like to discuss a topic that comes up throughout the year when people travel, they go to Airbnb’s, and they come into this beautiful apartment or house, and they settle down for a few days or for a week, and they'd like to use many of the appliances or other amenities that there are in the Airbnb, but they don't know from a kashrus  standpoint what they may use, what they can't use. Could you walk us through, give us some tips as to what people could do when they go to an Airbnb? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Yes, that's a great question and we get that all the time. So I'll share with you what we've put together based on all the questions that come through. So the very first thing you should assume is that all the utensils and appliances and counters and sinks are not kosher . And this is critical. Even if the guy says I only rent it to kosher people. That is way very common. Today we won't get into the halachic reasons why, but you need to assume that it's not kosher  and sometimes the hotels like to do that, but you're coming in, it's not kosher . So now what, right? So some people are smart and they think ahead of time, so they will bring their own pots. Their own pots and pans from home. And then the question only becomes can they use the stove top? So if you bring your own pots and pans from home, you can use the stove top as is, no problem. If it's an electric, a glass-covered rather, a glass-covered, that you would need to kasher . How do you kasher  that? You turn on each burner one or two at a time, not all four at the same time, for 15 minutes before placing the kosher  pot onto the surface for the first time, and you're good to go. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And the reason you don't do all at the same time is because it could cause the glass to crack, right? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Very good. Yeah, so it's a practical thing, it's not a halachic  thing. Exactly. And then you look at just as you said, going through the kitchen. Then you have the oven. So you can use the oven after kashering it. Now how do you kasher ? Well, if you're lucky and you have what's called the self-clean cycle, that goes way up there, you do that and you're 100% that's the best, that's libun gamur . You can kasher  that way. Let's say it's the traditional that it doesn't only go higher than I don't know 550. So assuming that it's an eino ben yomo , and a person can assume it's an eino ben yomo , you can turn it on for 550 degrees, which is the highest, for one hour, and then you could use it. Obviously it has to be cleaned inside, but that would be as far as the oven goes. Moving on, what about the microwave? So there's different shittos in microwave, I'm just sharing what we say at the CRC. There's really two ways. One way is you clean out all the visible residue that's in the microwave and then you double wrap the food on all sides. That is the somewhat the easiest. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: If someone for some reason they say no I need to kasher  the microwave, is there a way of kashering ? R’ Sholem Fishbane: So I'm not talking for Pesach  now, the Pesach  and all, let's just focus on as you said Airbnb during the year. You can kasher , yeah. Clean it very well, remove the glass plate which you cannot kasher , and then put a boiling cup of water into the chamber for about 10 minutes, 15 minutes until it fills up with steam and then you can kasher  it that way and then you can use the microwave. So that would be in terms of the microwave. Okay, so we did stove top, oven, microwave. Very common question, what about the coffee maker? Okay. So I think we've said it several times that coffee by itself is kosher , right? Plain old coffee doesn't need a hechsher  even. And most places are just going to have plain old coffee. And you can see, you can open up the cabinets, they usually leave over from the previous people, and you'll see plain old coffee, decaf, regular, it's fine. And you most of the time even see a hechsher  on it. So that's not the problem. So the plain old coffee you could use, not a problem. What you do need to worry about though is the cups, the K-cups, Keurig cups, well, so the K-cups is a little different, but let's just talk about where it's where it's the regular where it drips and you take it out. Oh okay. So that is a little bit because there's a dishwasher, you're going to assume they're going to wash it in the dishwasher. So you shouldn't use that and you certainly shouldn't use the ceramic cups. That bring from home or figure out a way how to get into your cup that way. But the coffee maker... self is okay. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So if I could remove let's say that glass container and then put in my own cup and let it drip directly into it, that would be okay. R’ Sholem Fishbane: 100 percent. And I could use the maker. That's not the problem. Yeah, that's not the problem. The Keurig also. Keurig machines in general almost all of them are there used to be, I'm talking about 15 years ago or 10 years ago, they made a non-kosher Keurig cup. They made chicken soup or something. But they've discontinued that long gone, so there's almost never you're going to have something really non-kosher going in a Keurig machine. So it's not a problem to use a Keurig machine. You use their cups, no problem. If someone is makpid  on cholov stam keilim , sometimes you'll have a Keurig pod that might be a hot chocolate that's milchig . That you should look out for. But if one is not makpid  on keilim  but keeps cholov yisroel  but not on keilim , so then you're okay making a Keurig using the Keurig machine because again almost all the ones that I've seen on Keurigs and these pods, they're either going to be kosher or kosher dairy across the board. Okay. Obviously we said before the dishwasher you cannot use. Toaster also we don't recommend using, also because people use it for non-kosher. Now what about the you open these drawers, there's all sorts of utensils, right? You could have a can opener, corkscrew, a cup, a dish, a silverware, a sinktop, water pitchers. What about all those? There's a slew of those. So if you're going to use them for hot, you should not use it for hot for blios  of treif . But for cold, assuming that they're clean, let's say you want to take a drink using a cup, a cold drink, that's okay. If you want to use the can opener or the corkscrew or something like that, that's okay. Obviously you want to make sure that it's clean. When I say clean, sometimes it gets trapped in the crevices. There's residue that gets trapped in the cracks. You make sure it's clean, but halachically it's okay to use that, and that really, that really helps people when they go to the Airbnb. And finally, just walking through the kitchen, the only thing that comes to mind that one should avoid is also the oven mitts. Okay. We advise against using the oven mitts, the placemats, and the colander also, just based on watching what goes on and all that. So that's pretty much what happens in an Airbnb kitchen, and there's lots of ways to make it work. One of the things, just that you know kind of a nice little thing I learned from my brother Bentzy, he taught us a nice trick when we go out to these places, and people worry about barbecue. So what we do is we buy ourselves a grate, just like kind of like an oven grate, tovel it, and that's one of the things that slips into your the front flap of your suitcase all the time. And once you have that, you go to a Walmart, you buy yourself a nice big throwaway turkey roaster, aluminum pan that's sturdy, and then you go buy yourself a thing of charcoal and you light it and you can make your own barbecue wherever you want, and all you really needed to worry about was that one grate. Afterwards you clean it and you put it back in your suitcase and you're good to go. So that's something that... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And you've seen this work? R’ Sholem Fishbane: I've seen it work, we do it all the time whenever we get together, and it's just a nice little tip. Not a kashrus necessarily, but just once we're talking about... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Listen, here at Kashrus  Awareness, we give practical tips, we give kashrus  tips, we give everything. I wanted to ask you one thing about sinks also in Airbnbs. I don't know if you touched on that. Putting keilim  into sinks, turning on the hot water in the sink and things of that sort, if you could give some guidance. R’ Sholem Fishbane: So basically what you want to be careful is that when you do wash the keilim , that you wash it at lukewarm. And that's something that therefore you want to give only an adult to be in charge of washing the sink so that there's no blios  from the sink. That's a good point also, yes. So keep it soapy and lukewarm and you're good to go. Got it. And a practical thing is maybe don't wear gloves because then you don't realize how hot... Right, right, right. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Great point. Anyway, it's been a great short summary here, helping us get through our Airbnb experience. As always, Rabbi Fishbane, thank you for joining us.

We have discussed party planners in the past, but this week we focus on another angle. Rabbi Yaakov Eisenbach - Rabbinic Coordinator at the cRc gives us the mashgiach's perspective of giving a hechsher to an event that is being run by a party planner, and the complexities it entails.   R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus , presented by the Kashrus  Awareness Project. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Yaakov Eisenbach, rabbinic coordinator for food service at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you Rabbi Eisenbach for joining us, how are you? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Doing wonderful. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: We want to talk to you about today just for a few minutes is party planners. Now we've done some episodes about party planners but I want to hear from you as a veteran Mashgiach  what you encounter when you deal with party planners and hopefully we could have a few takeaways from this conversation both for party planners who may be watching this and also for the everyday man for the consumer so that they should know what happens when there is that interaction between the party planner who's trying to do their job and the Mashgiach  who obviously has an achrayus  to do his job. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: You can have a party planner who does the party themselves. And they'll do from A to Z and I always tell the party planners because I've gone to party planners, I've been dealing with this for years. I say go under Hashgacha . She says, "We're not a caterer." I said, "You are a caterer. You have keilim . You have utensils. Whether it's toiveled or not I don't know because no one's overseeing any of these party planners. And where's it washed? This is just an example. They'll go into a house and you have equipment and they're doing fifty person party. Now, are they cooking the food? No." I said, "The only difference between you and a caterer will say is that they might have a kitchen. But no difference, you're getting the food is like you're having a kitchen, you're preparing it, you're keeping you're renting hot boxes, you're renting equipment. Is it kosher , not kosher  equipment, who's kashering it for you?" So if you go into a private party and someone invites you for a parlor meeting you should look for a Mashgiach . But then these party planners will go ahead and as one party planner once told me, we just gotta get the job done. Whatever it takes to do. So if it's a Shabbos  party for example, they might send the person we ran out of ice, go get the ice on Shabbos . Now, being at a party your it doesn't meet your standard that you're having the goyim  doing things that would not be permitted in your own house. So that's a regular party planner and I've been dealing with it and I've gone I've tried in Chicago where I've gone to shuls  and met with the Rabbonim  to give policies. Some shuls  do have policies. But I said you have a party planner coming in here. I'll give you a case yesterday. Somebody there was a shul , very good in Hashgacha , the regular Mashgiach  is out of town, one of our caterers doing a job, and they say, "Could you do us a favor and could you find us a Mashgiach ?" So I was out of town but I texted them a couple names. So this person texted back and I told them I can't talk, speak to my associate who I work with if you have any questions about it. So here's a prime example. So the party planner said be here at five o'clock. Now Shabbos means it already started. So obviously everything was prepared beforehand, meaning they brought the food, had to put it in the hot boxes or however they're prepping, putting up the blech  if it's being done properly, and they said to come at five o'clock. Five o'clock means come by the meal. So a lot of these party planners it's more of a show that they have to have a Mashgiach  because the shul  requires a Mashgiach but they're dictating what time to come. Five o'clock, everything is done. Meaning whatever had to been done for the prep, tables are set, the oven was put in or whatever they're using for equipment for Shabbos  if they're doing it properly. So my associate told them, which I would have told them, you call up when they're bringing the food, you're there from the beginning till after clean-up. And I've had that too where another rabbi came up to me two weeks ago. He had a party planner in his shul , okay, they hired their own Mashgiach , it's usually a CRC Mashgiach  that they hire because I can't stop them, they're a freelancer to do what they want. And they went ahead and and he's hired by her so he's not following the CRC rule as far as that is and he left at the end after everything was done. Meantime the party planner's there loading up her car for after I mean I don't even know what she did or he did whoever the party planner was and just loaded all, cleaned up the thing and loaded up the truck and had the non-Jewish person I think I don't know they took it away on Shabbos  or just not. But if what happened by us that doesn't do it because either sometimes we have to move it let's say if we're in an area where they gotta get it out, so they have the truck parked and they leave it there. Mashgiach holds onto the keys until after Shabbos  so we know no one can say anything. And then they go. But here, the rabbi came to me and says, we don't allow her back. We gave her a phone call. We're not allowing this party planner back. So these are just issues that the party planners themselves do on their own because they don't have to play by rules. But then we had a story, I would say, about two years ago. They bought new equipment, was a party, bought new equipment for hotel, everything right. What was the problem? The tevilas keilim . So, gotta do a party, so the mashgiach  went with the workers there. There was a river right there to go tovel  the keilim . Wow. Every single kli . Wow. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What percentage of party planners do you think today have hashgacha ? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: None. None. I have not heard of a party planner. We once had a caterer who was really, R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: at least the ones you deal with. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: The ones I deal with. I haven't heard anybody from out of town tell me. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Like you said, that's a big, big problem. First of all, who's overseeing, even if the caterer they use has hashgacha , we're assuming the caterer they're using. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: I mean, they're getting the food. They're getting the food from somewhere. A drop-off. A drop-off means here's your food, zei gezunt . R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But who's ensuring that the hashgacha on that establishment is reliable? Who's ensuring that however their keilim are being washed, that that's being washed properly? Right? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Not being washed in a facility with somebody's house. Somebody's house. You wouldn't eat in their house. I've had this. Now she has her own dishes or he has his own dishes, the party planner. Now you have those dishes washed in someone's house, fine. And then they want to go ahead and do a vort  or a fifty person dinner and you got a beautiful china. And she's bringing it with the caterer. CRC caterer or whatever hashgacha  they're under. You don't know what these plates are. What do they say to you? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So what do you do as a representative of the CRC? You show up, a party planner brings their own dishes and you don't know where those dishes have been. So what do you do? You say you can't use them? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Right. They're not used. We'll walk out. If you insist on that, I'll tell the mashgiach , he'll be paid for his full day, we will walk out. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But I would say the takeaway from our conversation is twofold. From the party planner standpoint, obviously we would encourage every party planner to have a reputable hashgacha . No question. It's definitely an extra expense for them, but it's vital that they have hashgacha . Right? Am I right about that? R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Yeah. It's not such an extra expense over a year. You know what I'm saying? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You know, and it's and I would say from the consumer standpoint, I think maybe the way to make inroads on this issue is if people, when you hire a party planner, the first question you should be asking is, do you have hashgacha ? And then the more it becomes part of the conversation, maybe, maybe, maybe there will be some kind of transformation. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Comes from pressure from the consumer, literally. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Rabbi Eisenbach, it's been a pleasure sitting with you. It's so nice to hear your reminiscences about your experiences in kashrus , besides for your insight regarding this specific topic of party planners, and we hope to speak to you again. Thank you. R’ Yaakov Eisenbach: Thank you.