What exactly is the responsibility of a kashrus agency? Is its role limited to ensuring that the food is kosher, or does it extend to the broader hashkafa, ethics, and conduct of the establishments it certifies? In this first part of a fascinating two-part discussion, Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, executive director of the cRc and AKO, joins R' Yitzchok Hisiger to explore the many considerations that go into this question, from lifnei iver and tznius to geneivas daas and dina d'malchusa dina. Through real-life examples and fascinating halachic perspectives, Rabbi Fishbane sheds light on the broader responsibilities that come with overseeing kashrus. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project and the cRc of Chicago. Today, I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, kashrus administrator of the cRc of Chicago. Thank you, Rabbi Fishbane, as well for being here again. And I should mention that you're the executive director of AKO, which is part of what led to this conversation, which is an interesting question, not your typical one when it comes to kashrus, because we're we're usually talking about the X's and O's of kashrus, usually halachic-oriented. But something that has come up time and again is the role of a kashrus agency when it comes to the hashkafa of an event or an establishment. And how a kashrus organization, and especially AKO, which oversees and brings together so many different kashrus organizations, how you deal with it? And I know it's a it's a real loaded topic with many different facets. I don't know if we'll be able to get through all of it today, but let's let's start the conversation. What what is the role of a kashrus agency when it comes to the hashkafa of kashrus? Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: So, that's every single day where we are we have to deal with that question, because let me start from the beginning. There is no way a person could adopt the the stance that it's just the food, give a hechsher to the food, and don't look at anything else. I mean, everybody has a red line, everybody, depending on what neighborhood you are and whatnot. You know, if if if there would be a fundraiser by, you know, just to use an extreme example of a a neo-Nazi fundraiser that want to be kosher, I mean even the the people that say, "Just the food," they'll they'll say, "Of course, no, no, not that," right? And if you want to push back, I'll find you a worse case, right? So, look, everybody has a red line, and depending where you come from. I remember one time we had in our office, a a group of doctors came in, and they felt that you're a kashrus agency, which includes kol haTorah kulah. There's a mitzvah in the Torah, v'nishmartem me'od es nafshoseichem, and one of the things we notice is all this loaded trans fats in the cRc kosher bakeries. It's a it's against halacha and therefore stop giving, you know, right? That that's just like one day another aspect from that, right? What what would you say if you were a kashrus agency, right? So so, but that's a great question. Like is it There's a hashkafa, you mentioned the word hashkafa, but many times it falls into actual halacha. Lifnei iveir, right? You walk into a kosher restaurant and there's non-Jewish music being played, or there's non-tznius. What exactly is the thing? And in some neighborhoods, they won't give a hechsher if there's Wi-Fi being offered. You know that? Depending on where you come from. These are These are fascinating conversations and halacha, and every agency needs to look at the general approach of what they're going to do, because, you know, Rav Pam once said to someone in kashrus, he said that, "Many times when you're faced with this, you have to see, what would be if you would not give the hechsher, will they eat non-kosher?" Right? There's there's a there's a very basic approach for that. So, that's kind of almost the hakdamah to this to this very fascinating conversation. And throughout the years, I've really come up with, you know, different categories almost. Like you said, there's the lifnei iveir side, there's the tznius, the non-Jewish music, the the we we were giving a hechsher to a ice cream, an ice cream store, and it was in a a very frum neighborhood, and the locals that lived around there were pressuring us tremendously not to give the hechsher unless we put shrubs around the outside eating area because of first, ochel bashuk domeh l'kelev, but more that they didn't want to see that what was going on, you know. And they felt that was our purview. And the rabbonim, the kashrus agencies, we always get the call whether something's going I'll give you a great example, and this is kind of another part is geneivas daas. So, I have a mechutan who called me that he went out to eat, and, you know, he saw he finished eating, and then he tipped very nicely on the bottom. And when he got home, he noticed the gratuity was already included. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Oh, wow. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: But on the bottom it said "total tip." Now, he didn't read the fine print or, you know, actually see the gratuity, and he called, he says, "You know, what do the kashrus agencies"-this is very much your question. Yeah. "What does the kashrus agency stand on that, and is it your responsibility?" He was just like shmoozing with me about it. What What do you think? Is it our responsibility? If If you walk in, and now you see you you double-tipped, who would you call, by the way? R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Yeah, I don't even know. Call the rav hamachshir, right? Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: So let me just tell you what I did with the tip. So I actually called around, and I spoke to various poskim at the time, but I think what Reb Shlomo Miller told me was something that really stuck. He says it is your responsibility from a halacha standpoint. There's a mitzvah of hashavas aveidah. So you, the kashrus, and you know that this fellow is adding the word tip, and people don't read, so you know that this guy lost his money, you have a chiyuv. So I'll tell you what we did. We required all of our places to add the word "additional tip" on all of the sheets. So that's that's one way that that we dealt with it in terms of that. Now, another very unrelated to We'll call it the mamonus side of things, which again we get is dina d'malchusa dina. Huge conversation. What do I mean by that? A home business. We get called all the time, "Will you give a hechsher to a home business?" We almost always say no, for the reason of dina d'malchusa dina. What does that mean? Do you know it's against the law to sell food that you make in a place that doesn't have a health code? That's the law. Now, if you learn the sugyas of dina d'malchusa, which most poskim say is d'Oraisa, it's it's a fascinating sugya. I'm not here to tell you everybody should do what they they need to do. I could just tell you that we went through the sugya, and besides practically if someone gets sick by food that we certify that was made illegally, we're putting ourselves at risk at risk from, you know, legal, but also from this halacha of dina d'malchusa. Now, in the sugyas of dina d'malchusa, the poskim say, and this is what this is the, you know, really how we look at it, there's there's two types of dina d'malchusas. There's dina d'malchusa like taxes and and more mamonus type of thing, which the poskim deal with, and then there's the dina d'malchusa that the government makes rules to protect its citizens. And that the poskim say you have to take very, very seriously. Not to say the other one not, we're not talking about the mamonus, but laws by by the government that are made to protect its citizen for health and other reasons, that is a very serious halacha, and therefore we won't give a hashgacha on a place that's illegal, which is a she'eilah of dina d'malchusa, aside for the other thing I mentioned. Now, the truth is, just practically speaking, there's something called cottage laws. Cottage laws, especially since COVID, where a lot of people started doing home businesses, they the government allows certain things. So, we look at it. Does the cottage law allow Every state is different, you should check it up, every state differently, but the government does allow you to sell certain things, let's say you're melting a chocolate, whatever, you know, whatever like. I just had last week someone came to my office, he wants to start cleaning He's an expert in tola'im. So he wants to start cleaning, you know, buying whole lettuce and cleaning it and then selling bagged for Shabbos. Great great business, right? So, hold on. I went on to the Illinois We're based in Illinois, and it actually says vegetables Green vegetables are forbidden by cottage laws. I mean, they're allowing a lot of other stuff, but not that. Listeria and all that, you know, all the other E. coli, things that that come up in in green vegetables. So I said, "I'm sorry, I can't." R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Yeah, so and this is part of your question. I know, again, there's so much to talk about, but these are the things that actually come up every single day. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: So So the bottom line is you're telling me from what I'm hearing from the few examples that we've gone through so far that you really do take that seriously, meaning the I'm calling it the hashkafa of kashrus, we could call it the ethics, right, the ethics and morals of hashkafa. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Right. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: You, as the rav hamachshir, do really take that into account. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Right. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Especially it sounds like dina d'malchusa for sure, Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Right. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: but other examples as well. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Yeah, there's so many examples when it comes to you know, just the food. There's animal welfare, is that our responsibility? Pesach hotels people go, there's all sorts of things going on there. Does the hechsher have to worry about the the elevator, the the pool, you know, there's stuff like that? Can you can you give a hechsher to a restaurant that doesn't have a sukkah? R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. Or they're open during the Nine Days, you know, and and it's and most people you know, these are the types of things that that come into to play. Today there's also, would you give a hashgacha on vapes? Would you give a hashgacha on marijuana? Would you give a hashgacha, you know, some places say don't give a hashgacha where one of the local rabbonim machshirim told me, local meaning here here in in New Jersey, that he got on an application for a lady that wanted to sell cakes. Minimum cake was . Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: And he felt, not for our community, no way. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Really? Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Yeah. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: That's interesting. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Yeah. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Cuz that's even more of an that's not a health issue. That's not a dina d'malchusa dina issue. I don't know what we would call it. We would call it excess- excessiveness. Excessiveness, gashmius. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Gashmius. Again, most communities like, "What? That's what you're thinking about, gashmius? We just want to make sure everybody keeps kosher." R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: And you know, and and and there are many cases like this, you know. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: But then it really becomes so arbitrary, because like like you were just alluding to, to one person what's excessive, to another person may be standard. And and, you know, so do you make up the rules as you go along? Like how how does Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: No, so it's a it's a good question. And what we look at is if somebody's walking into a CRC establishment, we want them to keep kol haTorah kulah, which means that there's nothing in that that they're going to be over, okay? As opposed to because that they came in, so therefore the the the tznius, the music, we actually go through the the music list in our restaurants to make sure that there's no woman singing, and that even if it's not a woman, but it's provocative, we don't allow. You know, we we literally, our Av Beis Din have sat down with some of the owners that have pushed back, and gone through the That That's what it go- comes out of. So if you walk in, you're a ben Torah, and you want to keep obviously you keep kol you keep Torah, you don't want to be walk into a place that has a hashgacha that that will R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Listen, the truth is we're we're out of time for this episode, Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Right. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: but I I see this as a massive topic. I want to pick this up, Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Yes. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: if it's okay with you. The next time we meet, Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Absolutely. Yes. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: we'll continue this conversation. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Right. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: I didn't realize what we got ourselves into. This is a really huge topic. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Huge, huge. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: And and from the questions that we've gotten, it's really one of the most pressing kashrus issues today, as much as it's not, like we said, in the Xs and Os of kashrus, but it really is. And it comes down to, like you said, understanding the kashrus consumer, and serving them in that capacity. So b'ezras Hashem, next time we talk, we'll continue with some more examples of what we called hashkafa in the world of kashrus. Thank you so much. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane: Looking forward.

Kashrus In The Yeshiva Kitchen In this episode of Let’s Talk Kashrus, Rabbi Meilech Friedman, Rosh HaMashgichim at Tartikov, discusses a critical but often overlooked issue: kashrus in yeshiva and school kitchens. From bishul Yisroel and the separation of milchigs and fleishigs to ingredient verification and proper supervision, he shares firsthand examples of the challenges that can arise when no one is taking responsibility. He also offers a practical suggestion for how parents can help bring about change by simply asking one important question: Does the mosad have hashgachah in its kitchen? R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Meilech Friedman, Rosh HaMashgichim at Tartikov. Thank you, Rabbi Friedman, for being here. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: My pleasure. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Shalom aleichem. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Aleichem shalom. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Thank you again. I want to talk to you today about a topic that comes up all the time. I get asked about it wherever I go, and it seems like nothing has changed in this field, and that is kashrus in yeshivas. Now, to most people who are not in yeshivas, it doesn't affect them. But we have thousands and thousands of tinokos shel beis raban, boys, girls going to school every day eating lunches, and in mesivtas they're eating suppers and sometimes breakfast, and so on and so forth. There's very often a kitchen operating from morning to night, and as far as I know, unless you could tell me otherwise, most yeshivas, if not all, do not have hashgacha. Talk to me about this topic. Why is it that way? Is it acceptable in your eyes, and what improvement should be made? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Okay. It is a very, I would even say, a painful topic because, unfortunately, we have hundreds of thousands of kids being served every day, three meals a day, and there's no hashgacha whatsoever in I would say 99% of the kitchens of yeshivas, schools, and chadarim. Is it is it the reason for that probably because when it started it was, let's call it, more local, and people knew the administrator and the manager and the cook, and they relied on them, which is, let's say, acceptable. But at the rate it was going and growing at all different parts in yeshivas and schools, that meant that the administrator wasn't in touch with the kitchen, and the manager is not in charge of the kitchen, and you have a cook, sometimes a frum Yid, sometimes not. Most of the times nowadays, he's just in and out for to guide the people who work in the kitchen what to do and not actually in the kitchen all day long. And what improvement, we'll leave for the end, try to get some idea what people just which are not involved in the hanhala of moisdos are able to do in order to get something done. So now, does it need hashgacha? I would say a little bit of harsh statement, but I would say that the worst scenarios in kashrus that I've seen during my years in kashrus were in yeshiva kitchens. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Really? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Yes. And I'll give just some examples. I'm not want to go into too much stories and so on, but just to get an idea what we're talking about. One of nice yeshiva, chassidishe yeshiva in Boro Park reached out to us for hashgacha, and the reason why they understood they did need hashgacha was because, unfortunately, the cook took breaded cutlets and put it in a pan, and laid on that mozzarella cheese because he thought that it's breaded eggplant instead of breaded cutlets. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Chicken, it was chicken cutlets? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: It was chicken cutlets. He thought it's eggplant. It was baked and served, and only the first people who saw that it's actually something wrong were actually the people biting into it. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: So again, mistakes happen even with hashgachos. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: That's 100%. No one is perfect. But such a mistake comes with lack of organization, lack of awareness that milchigs and fleishigs have to be completely separated. That brings us to our next point, that most kitchens who operate are either milchig or fleishig. Most restaurants, caterers, even the big caterers have a separate kitchen for milchig and a separate kitchen for fleishig. Most yeshivas have one kitchen operating out of that milchigs, fleishigs, and parve. And that means utensils, open spice boxes that you use for milchigs and fleishigs, you pour into in the morning into a pot of scrambled eggs with cheese inside, and then at night you pour it into a pot of soup, a chicken soup. Same open spice buckets are used for both, and that's a big kashrus issue. I've been called to a certain yeshiva, a different yeshiva, for hashgacha, also because one one of the parents went into the kitchen once and saw what's going on, and he made a big tummel, and the yeshiva said, "Okay, let's bring in someone, maybe it's not so bad, we can just consult them what to do." So we came in. Small, small place, really small. And it was like a sink in the middle of the room, two sides of sinks and a divider. And it was like, probably 75 sheet pans laying around over there, and I asked the goy, there's no Yid inside, I asked the goy, "How do you know which sheet pans are milchig and which sheet pans are fleishig?" And he said, "What do you mean? What's on this side is milchig, what's on that side is fleishig." So not talking about a concrete wall, you're talking about a small divider, small room, and six people working. No way to trace anything what's over there. It's beside that in that kitchen there was no Yid in charge of actually turning on the fires, which is a big issue in most of the kitchens. People assume that it's in a yeshivah, there's Rebbis, melamdim going in and out all the time, so there's Yidden all the time, what's the issue? But the real the real metzios is there's no one in charge. No one actually comes in, looks at the fire, did I put this on, or not? You have 10 people passing by, everybody assumes that someone else turned that on, and that means that the goy knows nobody knows if he if he turned it on or another one. So if it happens to be that a rabbi is pass- passing by when he wants it, he's going to ask him, not bad, but if he has to go call someone, he's never going to do it, because why should he? Nobody R' Yitzchok Hisiger: It's inconvenient. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Yeah, he should go now look for someone? So, over there the same thing. In this yeshivah, we they had a chef that came in once in a while, let's say once every two days, to make sure the kitchen's up and running. So now I asked him who is actually achrai on turning on the fires? He said, "There's no one, but there's always bochurim around in and out. Probably they they turn it on." So I asked the Rosh Yeshivah. He said, "What do you mean? A bochur that gets catched going into the kitchen gets thrown out! It's it's a choshive yeshivah, they can't be in the kitchen." So this is a gap, and that means that for unfortunately, for years, the goyim were turning on the fires on a daily basis. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: And no one took charge of it because no one was actually on this position to take achrayus on it. So, we told them for the Rosh Yeshivah that either you hire someone in the kitchen, or you have to make exception to the rule and get two bochurim actually in the kitchen once in a while. They don't have to be all day long, once in a while. We did a very interesting system on the knobs of the range to they shouldn't be able to turn it off, it should be on all the time. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Oh, really? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Yeah, yeah, it's a very... R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Interesting. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: I wouldn't say it's something to present for people, but more like wood with screws, something very yeshivish, but it worked. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Uh-huh. But, hey, it did work. To ensure bishul Yisroel. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: It did work. Yes, so that's why it had a lock, only one bochur had a key. He'd open it up in the morning, turn on the fires, lock it back in order they shouldn't be able to turn it off all day long. So now, this is not something's going to happen in your ordinary commissary, your ordinary restaurant, that no one has achrayus at all on what's going on in the kitchen. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: If I can mention, you mentioned bishul Yisroel, you mentioned mixing milchigs, fleishigs, side pots, and also ingredients, but I would say also just ordering the the food items, right? The the stock room the stock room in the yeshivah, that who's taking care of the ordering and making sure that every item is under a reliable hechsher? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: 100%. In most places, happens to be there are the Yiddish managers who are actually ordering, the goyim are not ordering, but no one is looking it over. When it comes in, there's no receiver who actually takes the bill of lading, looks over the boxes: "I ordered this, I got this." R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: It doesn't happen. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: And and if they run out of something, if they have to run out to a store and get something, right? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: A very big issue. Yeah. And also there's government programs giving out produce, canned food, and all these kind of stuff over here in in New York, and most of them come with a hashgachah, not a hashgachah on the actual box, but it has a letter of certification. But because it doesn't have a a a hashgachah on the actual can, someone who walks in the kitchen wouldn't see that it's something wrong. I'll give a very striking example. There was a time, it's not actual anymore, in that time there was StarKist tuna was made a special run of bishul Yisroel for the moisdos. Anyone who walks into the kitchen who sees StarKist tuna has no idea if this is the bishul Yisroel run or not. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Uh-huh. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: The only way to know it is by the letter of certification, it had a lot code, and you had to compare the lot code. So, two things: number one, nobody could see, and even if there's no one to accept the order, match the lot codes, and confirm it, very possible that you got the lot number that is not bishul Yisroel, it's a case away. This is another very strong point. And then it has far-going in in in terms of, you make an alumni Shabbos, yeah, very common all the places. Who serves the Shabbos in a lot of places? The yeshivas. So the the chef, the cook in the kitchen in the yeshivah cooks it, sends it out to the hotel, house, whatever they rented for the for the Shabbos, and along with that, pots, pans, utensils. Who takes achrayus on that? Nobody knows what's happening over there. Sometimes they forgot it over there, I've had in the past, it stayed a week over there, a goyishe place, and it came back to the kitchen. Who takes achrayus for this week? R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: And then there's the next step, all related to that, is the summer camps. So now, I know there's an initiative from AKO and the CRC to review summer camps, but I would say 80% are still not assigned to that, and nothing nothing is happening. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: And it sounds from you like really that initiative should be for yeshivos, just as much. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Absolutely. Absolutely. Just as much or even more, because that's 10 months a year, and this is two months a year. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: So I believe there are several mosdos, I think in Lakewood, that that do have some kind of supervision. Obviously, I'm sure you've heard this from mosdos when you bring it up to them. They say, listen, we're we're we're not making ends as at, you know, we're not making ends meet. We need to fundraise. Now we should take on another achrayus, financial responsibility of of a of a mashgiach or so on and so forth. And obviously the response to that is timtum halev, you know, who who is taking achrayus on the timtum halev? You'll spare some money on the tutors that you have to hire for the kids who are eating food that is questionable, right, if I may say. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Right. It's something... R' Yitzchok Hisiger: If you if you were to institute, I'm curious, if you were to institute a a system of supervision for a yeshiva, do do they need mashgiach temidi? Do they need a a yotzei venichnas? What what is the right approach? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: So, I would say a lot depends on the volume, how much meals they serve a day, how much portions they have to produce. It's up for debate, let's say, because since it is in a place there's a lot of Yidden around and everything, but I think the bare minimum is to have at least two or three people within the staff who are in the kitchen, not like some rosh yeshiva who's in his office most of the day and just goes in. I usually say it has to be more nichnas than yotzei. If it's more yotzei than nichnas, it doesn't work. People just don't... yotzei venichnas is a real thing. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: And if the cook is a frum Yid, is that enough, or is he so busy with the food that he's not going to be able to supervise the kashrus? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: So there are more cooks that are capable, some are who are less. Again, we had a big girls school in Boro Park who called us up, and he said, listen, some parents asked that we need a hashgacha, we think we don't we don't need, come down, send a mashgiach for a day, he should write a report, let's see. By the end of the day, we had probably 30 or 35 issues in one day in the kitchen, yes, and you're talking about a place with two frum women working there full time. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Could you could you give us some of the example some of the examples of those 30, 35 issues? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Sure. From cereal not pas Yisroel, bishul Yisroel, again, not everyone is makpid, but in a place that is established that it needs to be makpid, it's supposed to be. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: I would also think that a that a mosad of chinuch habonim vehabanos should be on the highest standard, right? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: 100%, 100%, yeah. Filters not working or missing, water filters. I've had in the past, I came in, I asked the administrator, do you have a filter on the water? Of course, we invested a lot of money, we installed the filter on the main. All the water in this place is filtered. I come down to the filter, this part of being a mashgiach is being like a half-time plumber, and the filter was bypassed, meaning to say every filter when they install it, in order to be able to to make maintenance on the filter, they put in a valve that shuts off the filter, and the water gets diverted through another pipe into the system. That means that for that time, the filter doesn't work, the water doesn't pass by the filter. This was by default on a bypass mode, none of the water was filtered. Now it could happen, it can happen all the time. Every mashgiach who goes into a place knows that every here and there he has to make a stop at the filter to make sure it's up and running. When there's no one achrayus on that, it never happens, never. And what happens ends up happening is that the filter gets clogged, the water pressure gets low, the goy sees that it doesn't work, he goes there, bypasses the filter, and sholom al Yisroel. So, I would say hundreds of keilim not marked if it's milchig or fleishig, keilim who are marked milchig and fleishig mixed up all the time, having a goy taking out meat with a dairy spoon, having a goy turn on the flame, of course, ovens not bypassed. Now, again, we can debate that if it's needed or not. Standard in most kashrus organizations are that ovens, convection ovens, need to be bypassed, that when you open the door, it shouldn't shut off. None of them were done over there. And having ingredients in the stockroom which were totally not approved, meaning to say not at the lower standard. So we gave them a list, we showed it to them. We said, it's your decision, we are not here... they paid the mashgiach for the day, it's your decision. And happens to be that place is chashuve people, and they said, you're right. They hired us, and it's already probably 15 years that we give hashgacha over there. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Oh wow. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: Yes. Again, there's no sign on the wall, there's no papers, and we don't get any kavod out of it, but it's kashrus, and it's real kashrus, and we know, and the administrator knows that he does what's right, and he serves kosher food for Yiddishe kinderlach. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: But I'm thinking maybe it would be a good idea for there to be a paper on the wall so that maybe other people will see it and say, "You know what? If this mosad has it, yeah." Rabbi Meilech Friedman: This was their decision. I don't know why, but this was their decision. We have a different kitchen in Flatbush that has a paper on the wall, and he is someone who supplies for different mosdos, and we have a real certificate, and he sends it out. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: So, you should know, when I brought up this topic, I was schmoozing with with different people, and they said, "You know, we feel uncomfortable going to our son's mosad or our girl's mosad to ask this question. It's almost like we're questioning them. No one wants to be seen as the parent who's questioning a mosad. You know, then you become the difficult parent. You know, leave us alone. We have enough to worry about in the chinuch realm. Now you want us, you know, you're you're breathing down our back in kashrus." And I think that's perhaps why some parents think twice before they're going to open their mouths to their child's mosad. But it sounds from what you're saying that it's it's it's really lo zo haderech. It really can't continue this way. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: 100%. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: I don't know what the path forward is. Maybe it's conversations like this one that will result in significant change, you know, in mosdos of all types. But any final thoughts on this topic? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: So, I I would say that the simplest and most calm way to institute a change is, just as when you send in an application, it has 100 different questions on your application, just as important as whom your grandparents' mechtonim were, it is important you should ask one simple question: Do you have a hashgacha in the kitchen? Not in a way of offending. Just matter of fact: Do you have a hashgacha or not? And if the answer is not, you can put down the phone. If they'll get 100 parents per registration season asking this simple question without any conversations after that, they will get a hashgacha. That's my opinion, and I believe that people are not bad, people not the administrators, as we we spoke about it, they have so much to do, so much on their head, it doesn't pass by that the kitchen needs a hashgacha. If they'll hear it from 100 parents per registration season, I believe that will be a big, big change. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: I do want to mention that, especially in the last 10, 15 years, newer mosdos, I think when when I went to yeshiva, I don't know, when you went to yeshiva, it was standard fare for a yeshiva to have a full operating kitchen with a a cook, milchigs, fleishigs, so on and so forth. A lot of newer mosdos now, I think it's just easier, instead of hiring a chef, they get food from outside for for all meals: breakfast, lunch, and supper. I know where I live in Lakewood, it's definitely more common to have that than to have a a chef in the in the school. Is is that as serious? Is that less serious, especially because presumably the vendors that they're getting the food from have reliable hashgachos? Rabbi Meilech Friedman: So, it's a question now of delivery and chosamos and things of that sort. So, it depends what means vendor in terms of what they are getting. Some people just get, let's say, from big vendors, commercial companies, they get potato knishes and blintzes, they just warm it up. That's one aspect. In this area, I would say 99% are good, and they have reliable hashgachos, and everything's okay. But, in other sense, they don't want to be busy buying this from that vendor and the other stuff, and they just call up a different mosad who has a bigger kitchen and tell them, "I need 200 portions for breakfast, 200 for lunch," and that mosad sends it. Now, in a certain sense, that's even worse, because just now the other mosad has more pressure, more portions to provide, and that makes a lot of pressure. But on the other hand, it's less offensive when you know that your mosad buys from a different mosad, call up the administrator and tell him, "I know when you would run the kitchen, you would have a hashgacha. Call up that administrator, ask him to get a hashgacha." It's always easier to pressure someone else than yourself. And this will probably work. I know a certain kitchen that got a hashgacha only because they wanted to expand business. They hired a few mosdos to take from their stuff, and the first question was, "Who's your hashgacha?" And they didn't have. Now, if that the other mosad had a hashgacha when they had their own kitchen, not so sure. But it's always easier to point fingers on someone else, unfortunately, but it works. And when people know that their mosad takes from a different kitchen, call up the administrator, tell him, "Ask that mosad to get a kitchen to get a hashgacha in the kitchen." And I think that it should make a big difference and a big impact on real kashrus. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Rabbi Friedman, thank you very much for joining us for this very important conversation, and our our hope is that be'ezras Hashem, conversations like these will lead to improvement, especially as kashrus keeps going from from one level to another, be'ezras Hashem, in the realm of yeshivos and schools we'll see the same. Rabbi Meilech Friedman: My pleasure. Mamash a kavod to be here, and you should keep up your good work, mezakeh, to be mezakeh es harabbim. R' Yitzchok Hisiger: Amen, thank you so much. Kol tuv.

Buying Jewish & Pas Palter In the fourth installment of the Let’s Talk Kashrus Q&A series featuring Rav Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois, R' Yitzchok Hisiger presents a new set of practical shailos about supporting Jewish-owned businesses. How far should a person go to patronize a Yid when a non-Jewish store offers lower prices or greater convenience? Rav Fuerst discusses the balance between supporting fellow Yidden and the realities of price, convenience, and pas palter, including when it is permissible to purchase non-Jewish baked goods. The discussion concludes with a fascinating shailah about working as a salesman for a company that sells non-kosher products. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today, I am joined by Rav Shmuel Fuerst, dayan of Agudas Yisroel of Illinois. Thank you, Rav Fuerst, for being here. So, we have more shailos that came in, and I'd like to present them to the rav. Today's topic is the chiyuv of buying from a Yid. We know there's a a mitzvah vehechzakta of buying from Yidden, supporting Yidden, patronizing frum businesses, and the question is where convenience plays a role in supporting a frum Yid. Sometimes, it's more convenient to buy from a a non-Jewish proprietor. So, how far does a person have to go before it's considered a tircha when buying from a Yid? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: First of all, in Shulchan Aruch, it's not mentioned a word. It's not mentioned. It's only a Sifri that it's mentioned in parshas Behar, that a person should try to to solicit to go to buy from a from a Jewish from a Jewish person, Jewish owner. The question is, and another thing is, how far does it go? Since it's not mentioned in Shulchan Aruch, there's a Teshuvos Rema. There are other poskim that discuss this, and they say like this: this is the consensus. I mean, it's a big machlokes, but ledina, we hold like the Teshuvos Rema, that if it's a davar mu'at, then you if it's a davar mu'at, then you as long as still the one, you should patronize a Yid and not a goy. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Meaning davar mu'at meaning? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: So so what's a davar mu'at is hard to say. Depends on each person. I asked this once Reb Reb Elyashiv and and Reb Yisroel Yaakov Fisher, they both said It depends on each person what a davar mu'at is. A thousand dollars could be a lot of money for some people. Someone else, a thousand dollars is a lot of money. Sometimes, the difference of price could be a hundred thousand dollars going to two people. Depends on what what you're looking to buy. So so davar mu'at depends on the person. So, if it's a davar mu'at, then you should patronize the Yid. It's not a davar mu'at or not. Sometimes, you go shopping for Shabbos you go shopping in let's say in Walmart, you go shopping, sometimes you buy a whole cart full of things, and it's a lot cheaper in Walmart than you go buy by a Yiddishe store on 13th Avenue. It's a lot cheaper. So, sometimes it accumulates and it adds to a lot of money. But if it doesn't add to a lot of money, it's only davar mu'at, then lechatchilah, you should buy by a Yid. You should patronize a Yid. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So, if it's only a small If the difference in price is only a small amount, you should definitely go to a Yid. And you're And the rav is saying that as far as what is considered a small or big amount depends on the person. But how about where the price is the same, but it's a question of tircha? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: Depends what the tircha is. Is it two minutes? Is it a half hour? Depends what the tircha is. If it's down the block, and so on. And also, the other poskim say, if it's only a small thing you're buying, let's say you want to buy a Pepsi, you want to buy a Coke, you want to buy something, and there's 7-Eleven down the block, and you go to Jewish store, it's two blocks away, you just want to buy a small thing, then zicher you can buy even by the goy then also. It's only when you go buy a lot of stuff, you go shopping for Shabbos, you go shopping for the whole family, and so on, then it accumulates a lot of money. If it's really a small amount and it's a one-time thing, then, for sure, you can go to the goy. That's how some of the poskim say. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. This question of buying from Yidden versus goyim is definitely very prevalent nowadays because it's become so common for people to buy items online from from non-Jewish vendors. It's a lot more convenient, yeah. is a lot more convenient, and for some people, they're buying, except for their basic groceries, they're literally buying everything that they need from online. So is that is that Can one buy Can one just buy all their items from from an online vendor if that's more convenient? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: Yeah, sure. That's called a tircha. That's considered a tircha. If you can buy it online and it's all shipped to you, and then you have to go out and spend a half hour, an hour out there shopping, considered a tircha. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. One more question that comes up when buying from from Jewish stores versus non-Jewish stores is benogeia pas palter. There are many items of pas palter category that either are much cheaper when you buy it from from ShopRite or Walmart or stores like that, from non-Jewish companies, and they may be cheaper, they may be Taste better. taste better, they may have items that don't exist in a bishul Yisroel form. R’ Shmuel Fuerst: And also, it could be different hours. A Jewish store is open from 9:00 to 5:00 or 9:00 to 6:00, and they're open 24 24 hours a day. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: 24 hours a day, right, right, right. It's convenient. So, what guidance could the rav give as far as pas palter? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: Pas palter, if it if the goyishe food tastes better, and tastes better and it's cheaper and so on, then Shulchan Aruch says clearly then it's okay. You're allowed to buy pas palter. Not just Stella D'oro cookies. Right, no. Any type of cookie, right, yeah. But if they're a lot cheaper, then You're allowed you're allowed to buy Stella D'oro if it tastes better. A lot of times, like people say it tastes better, and it's fresher. Sometimes you buy in a Yiddishe store, it could be sitting out there for for a couple of days, and this one every day they have a large overturn. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Is there a makom l'hachmir that people should not, or? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: It's a nice thing to be it's a nice thing to be machmir, but b'din it's mutar. It's a nice thing to be machmir. It's also you should support, vehechzakta bo. You should give if everyone goes on Amazon, they Won't have parnassah. Won't have parnassa , vehechzakta bo. You should buy you should buy from Jewish business. Right. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: One final question in this category of of patronizing non-Jewish companies or businesses: can one be a salesman for a non-Jewish company? R’ Shmuel Fuerst: In other words, the shaileh is like this. There's issur sechar devarim assurim. You're not allowed to do business with with treif stuff. So to own treif stuff and to sell it, that's assur. It's clear in Shulchan Aruch, according to rov poskim, it's issur d'Oraisa, except in the noda beyehuda who holds it is d'Rabbanan, according to all poskim also it's issur d'Oraisa. To do sechar devarim assurim, on things which are assur d'Oraisa. So the question is, can you be a can you be a salesman? In other words, you don't own the you don't own the food, but you're selling the food and so on. So the Darkei Teshuvah brings down a machlokes Beis Shlomo and the Shoel U'meishiv, if it's mutar or assur. Beis Shlomo assers and the Shoel U'meishiv is meikel. I asked this Reb Moshe many years ago, cuz it was nogeia a shaileh I had, and Reb Moshe says, "Men zol zein somech an di meikilim." That's how he answered me. So he's meikel. As long as you don't own it, you could do sechora with it and so on. The issur sechora is when you own it; if you don't own it, there's no issur sechora. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay. Thank you so much.

Is Your Sukkah Up To Code? You may be comfortable eating at a restaurant under a reliable hashgachah, but what about eating in its sukkah? In this special Sukkos episode, Rabbi Yosef Fund of the KCL in Lakewood joins R' Yitzchok Hisiger to explore the kashrus of public sukkos. From s'chach and sukkah walls to lavud straps, sukkah construction, and the effects of wind and weather, Rabbi Fund walks us through the practical shailos that can arise in the sukkos we encounter throughout Yom Tov. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Yosef Fund, one of the rabbanim of the KCL in Lakewood. Rabbi Fund, welcome to the Let's Talk Kashrus studio. R’ Yosef Fund: Thank you. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So, with the Yom Tov of Sukkos coming, I mean, we don't know when people will watch this episode, but this is being put out special for Sukkos, a topic that has rarely been addressed in a forum of this sort is the topic of sukkos in establishments, public sukkos. You go to stores, you go to maybe amusement venues, wherever you go, and you're going to be eating in someone else's sukkah that was built by someone else, you don't know the details of the sukkah. So the question is, can you rely on the kashrus of the sukkah without knowing these details? And I guess to encapsulate the the crux of the question: if I'm going to a store, let's keep it simple, I go to a store, store is under a reliable hashgachah and it has a sukkah, can I assume that the kashrus organization that is supervising the establishment also supervised the construction of the sukkah and the maintenance of the sukkah? Walk us through this topic. R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, it's a great question. I'm not familiar with what's happening in other va'adei kashrus. In KCL of Lakewood, as long as I've been involved, which is a number of years, the policy is that whoever, whichever establishment puts up a sukkah for the patrons, pizza stores mostly, there have been even halls that do it, other fast food places, maybe some restaurants, they should inform the Va'ad HaKashrus, and then sometime shortly before Yom Tov, one of the rabbanim from the va'ad visits the sukkah and assesses the kashrus of the sukkah. Sometimes we have a vendor who puts up a sukkah on Sukkos unexpectedly. Sometimes there are some who have maybe zoning issues or building issues, and they could only put up on Chol HaMo'ed, but usually it's done before, and one of the rabbanim visits and examines the sukkah. I want to share an interesting thing. You know, we grew up, many of us, there was a sefer, a squat green sefer from Rav Elya Weisfish, two squat green sefarim, most sefarim weren't green, still aren't green, one on Sukkah and one on Daled Minim. And in Tav-Shin-Ayin-Zayin, Rav Elya Weisfish put out a new edition of the one on Sukkah, which I have right over here. It turned into two volumes with pictures on the cover and glossy pictures inside. And I met him shortly afterwards in Ayin-Ches or so, maybe Ayin-Tes, walking right near Zichron Moshe with his son, and I told him that the sefer came to America. And he told me that his first sefer was on Daled Minim, and after the sefer on Daled Minim was published, Rav Elyashiv encouraged him to write a sefer on Sukkah. And he asked Rav Elyashiv, he said, "I understand that people need a sefer on Daled Minim, but why do people need a sefer on Sukkah? They tend to do it right." And he said, "Yeah, when people make a sukkah in their own home, then they tend to do it right. When they make a sukkah when they tend to travel, then it's often more makeshift, and that's when people need to know the halachos." So I would add, in my experience, that restaurant sukkos, for whatever reason the dynamic is, some of them are great, some of them need shipur, need fixing when I come, some need more than fixing, some need refu'ah sheleimah, but they're all put up by well-meaning people, but sometimes they have problems and sometimes it's great from the get-go. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So you're talking about the importance of a sefer on sukkah. What are specific issues that you've encountered? You come to a store, store owner presumably maybe hired someone or he put it up himself. What are the issues that you find, you know, could be problematic? R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, one thing I find, I don't know why this is, but often there is a gap between the wall and the schach. This doesn't tend to happen in people's houses. I've been in many sukkos. In restaurant sukkos, pizza store sukkos that are quite large, sometimes the size of the sukkah and the amount of schach they have is also off, and sometimes I show up before Yom Tov, and I say, "Have someone go and buy some more schach." We also have, I should add, we have some some nursing homes that are under the hashgachah of the KCL, and then the sukkah is inspected. Some of these nursing homes have very large sukkos, so they need a nice amount of schach, and for whatever reason, this is something I often find. The halachah is that between the wall and the schach, there can't be more than three fists' space, and often it is, and then I insist they get more schach or to adjust the schach to bring it out closer to the wall. Sometimes, again these are large sukkos, and sometimes there's a middle space. When you have a space in the middle, sometimes that space will just mean you can't sit under that space, a gap, sometimes it will be a space that will ruin the continuity of the sukkah. Regardless, I have them fix that space because someone may sit under there, and that's something I have them fix. That's one very common thing in store sukkos, restaurant sukkos. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now when you show up to a store sukkah after it's already built, you don't know who necessarily put the schach on, right? You don't know if it was any yehudim who work in the store, and the owner maybe didn't realize and he asked them to take care of the whole sukkah without realizing that someone who's a bar mitzvah would have to put on the schach. How do you navigate that type of an issue? R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, so that's a great question. Me'ikar hadin, sukkas ganva”ch (Goyim, Nashim, Beheima, Kutim) is kasher, so therefore even if the person who put it up was not a yehudi, it would be kasher. The proper thing is to be mechadesh bo davar to actually put, add some, one corner tefach al tefach, or lift up a part of the schach and put it back on. Some do it just leshem tzel, some are makpid to do leshem mitzvah. Regardless, I haven't found it yet that I showed up by a restaurant or hall and they told me that it wasn't a yehudi who put it on. I'm not saying it can't happen. It wouldn't be the biggest problem because it would be me'ikar hadin kasher, and then I would be mechadesh bo davar, but lechatchilah, it would still be kasher livrachah without it, but it hasn't happened yet, maybe it will happen. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: How about an issue, and this is something that people ask a lot about, the dina demalchusa component of you can't build a sukkah, the old joke about the guy who builds a sukkah on the sidewalk outside his store, and he gets a notice from the local municipality, "You have seven days to take it down," and you know this joke is said over every Yom Tov, and so on and so forth. Talk about that, the convergence of municipal laws and regulations and the building of a sukkah on public property. R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, so that's an important question, but a lot of it will also have to do with whether the local tzibbur, the local public minds or doesn't mind, meaning every vendor needs to be responsible for the legality of it. But if it's in a place where the local populace doesn't really mind, then from a kashrus perspective, I wouldn't be concerned with eating in that sukkah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What other concerns have come up as far as… R’ Yosef Fund: One of the most common issues are with the integrity of the walls. We know that one controversial topic is the… R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: is the canvas sukkos? R’ Yosef Fund: Canvas sukkah flapping walls. Right. Okay, now, Shulchan Aruch discourages the use of walls that are from yeri'os, that are from curtains that could flap. Shulchan Aruch mentions a a fix for this problem, which is to have poles spread out around the sukkah. I'll try to explain in a minute what that means. Now, there's more than one legitimate interpretation of what is a problem with these walls that flap. There are some who understand that a wall that moves is not a kosher sukkah, even if it just moves a little bit. This is maybe a position that the Mishnah Berurah seems to go with, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was choshesh for. The Chazon Ish was okay as long as it doesn't move three tefachim, three fists. Some are concerned if in the middle there's a belly when the wind blows, that that's not a teishvu ke'ein taduru. Rav Moshe is concerned for that, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Chaim Kanievsky was not concerned for that. Almost all are concerned with the problem that sometimes it tends to get detached on the bottom, on the top, it tends to come loose. Rav Chaim Kanievsky signs off on the eitzah for that of these plastic zip ties, those usually don't go anywhere, that is a solution. Now this is something that I see both before Sukkos and on Sukkos, that yes, if you just tie down your canvas, so then it will often come a point that it will get detached by the wind, it will shift from the wind and no longer be a legitimate wall, and there's also a problem that Rav Moshe mentions that sometimes people, children will knock it into it and cause it to become detached. Now, the solution the Shulchan Aruch says is to put poles. I want to explain what that is. You could make a sukkah, which we had one vendor who had a nice wrought iron fence around his property, so he had poles, vertical poles every couple, I don't know, every six, eight inches, whatever it is. What I told him to do is put cross the other way, horizontal. Okay, if you have poles that are both vertical and horizontal, then you definitely, clearly have lavud, and that will be a kasher mechitzah, walls of a sukkah. If you don't have in both directions, you only have in one direction, it's more controversial. Is it kasher or not? Many hold that even if it's not kasher, it's kasher min haTorah. So, there is a mahalach that many poskim go with, which is that if you have a canvas sukkah, what there are concerns it will get detached, or according to some it's too floppy, according to others maybe it's not too floppy, the way you make it okay is by having lavud, and you'll often see these lavud straps, and either it will be kasher with that alone, or at least it will be kasher min haTorah, and therefore we'll be relying on the two things together. So, if someone wants to make their entire sukkah without canvas walls or tent walls, I will definitely insist that if they're using lavud, it should go both directions. So we definitely have one pizza store that has a wrought iron fence. He does have, you know, other walls added to it. Maybe he has for privacy curtains, but the sukkah is kasher with that alone. But I have him introduce in the other direction so there should be Horizontal. crisscross horizontal, the verticals and horizontals, that's something that's that we would allow, and that's perfectly kasher. What if they have walls and you do your best, these curtain walls, whether they are canvas or sometimes plastic material? So yes, I will insist that they tie them well top and bottom. On top of that, that they should use these lavud straps. Now, often people don't understand what these lavud straps are all about. So, I come, and the sukkah is assembled, and it has these lavud straps, and they're all over the place. And I don't blame them, no one ever told them what these lavud straps are for. Often they think it's just some kind of backup to provide some additional support. And they have these lavud straps and they're crooked and this and that. They have to be lined up. If they're horizontal, they have to be lined up nicely, that they're within three fists from each other. What I insist on doing is, you know, we know that fists come in different sizes, different poskim have different values, some four inches, some three inches, some three and a half, I insist in going in both directions. I insist not on three lavud straps, but on four lavud straps, and each one should be about eight inches apart, going up to a height of about forty inches. And that way I'm covering from from both directions. I'm going with a, call it minimal shiur of three tefachim and a maximal shiur of three tefachim. But importantly, whatever shiur you're doing, if you show up and see a sukkah, a restaurant sukkah, whatever, and they have these lavud straps and they're kind of all over the place, That's a problem. or this wasn't assembled properly, it wasn't to me that's a a red flag that this is not a sukkah that is being properly supervised. Sometimes, I said just have them come out and add some string around it, whatever it is. And again, it's a very simple fix if you understand, if you have the application what it is we're trying to do. And the vendors are always very happy to to comply, and they're very happy to make a kasher sukkah. After everything is said and done, sometimes there's a storm. You know, if I remember correctly, last year, there was very stormy weather the night of Hoshana Rabbah. There were some sukkos I knew about that came down from some of the vendors, but it was raining throughout Hoshana Rabbah. I'm not going to insist that they put the sukkah back up when the forecast says it's going to be raining for the whole rest of Hoshana Rabbah. So if you see a sukkah that is under our responsibility and it's down or three-quarters down, that may be the reason why. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So again, to review the this important point, as far as kashrus organization organizations taking responsibility. You said you can't speak for other organizations, people should find out, but as far as the KCL is concerned, any store that has KCL supervision, the KCL is also taking achrayus for the kashrus of the sukkah? R’ Yosef Fund: Correct. The kashrus of the sukkah, the sukkah is inspected, and the sukkah has to be on the standards that the rabbanim require of the KCL stores. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now, if people can't reach the mashgiach or the kashrus organization, if you show up to a sukkah in an establishment and you trust the establishment, is there any quick inspection of some sort that a person should do when they come to the sukkah, look around, make sure everything looks right, and then feel comfortable to eat? R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, so I would say if the sukkah looks like they're not cutting corners. When I say not cutting corners is there are poskim, is a Maharil who say that there's a hidur to, call it, make a sukkah to the max, four walls, etc., etc., even though lahalachah we know that less than that is kasher. The accepted psak that we allow for our vendors is, if it's kasher lechatchilah, it's kasher lechatchilah. They don't have to have a sukkah with four full walls, etc., etc. But then you have to know what you're doing, and that's when a sefer like this comes in. If a sukkah looks well-made, then you definitely don't have a question. Now, I once, you know, we got a call, one of our vendors, someone had a large sukkah, a restaurant, and there was like a nice entrance on one side, a nice entrance on the other side, and you could walk straight through into the front door, etc., etc., and for whatever reason, to this person, it seemed like a problematic sukkah, and it was perfectly kasher, it was kasher lechatchilah, and there will be other such situations that we get calls during Yom Tov. So I'm happy that people are calling, I'm happy that they're paying attention, and yesh sachar lif'ulasech, that someone cares. Right. But if the sukkah looks like it's flopping, and the easiest is if the schach isn't really covering properly, then it it may be kasher, may not, but it there isn't someone being on top of it. Now again, it may be that it was great before Yom Tov and the wind did its thing. We try to make sure it doesn't, but just like in our homes, it happens. In our homes it happens, and then people take personal responsibility. In the pizza store, sometimes the owner may be with his family on a Chol Hamoed trip, and and he doesn't know what's happening in the sukkah, yeah? Right. So I don't have a problem with that. We try to make sure the sukkah is a sukkah that will last for Yom Tov, but just like in our houses, that doesn't always happen, rabos machashavos, and so too in the establishments. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Rabbi Fund, thank you so much for joining us. This is a very instructive conversation. I would say it's long overdue that this topic be brought to the fore. So thank you very much, and thank you for all your efforts in general and at the KCL in particular, and I guess I could use this opportunity to wish you a good Yom Tov. R’ Yosef Fund: Okay, and I appreciate being here and this opportunity. Thank you so much.

How did Shabbos mode come to be—and what problems was it actually designed to solve? Rabbi Shmuel Katz, Rabbinic Coordinator at the cRc, joins R’ Yitzy Hisiger for a fascinating look at the history, halachic challenges, and ingenious solutions behind the Shabbos modes in today’s appliances. Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am joined by Rabbi Shmuel Katz, Rabbinic Coordinator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you, Rabbi Katz, for joining us once again. Thank you. The last time we met, we spoke about the concept of Shabbos mode, and you gave us a beautiful primer about the workings of Shabbos mode, halachically, practically. What I'd like to discuss with you today briefly are some of the issues that Shabbos mode came to address. I think it would be interesting to go back historically to when the original oven shailos arose. What were the issues that were discussed by the poskim, and how did Shabbos mode address those issues? So Shabbos modes were started only in the last 30 years, but the shailos have been about 100 years old. And the shailos, the tshuvas really started with the thermostats on fridges. This was an electronic appliance, and people discovered that it had a thermostat, which meant when the temperature in the fridge gets too high, it turns the fridge back on to cool it back down. So people opened the fridge, the cold air would come in, it would make it warm and it would cause it to go on. And the poskim discussed: Can you cause the fridge to go on on Shabbos when you open the door? Can you open the door and allow it to happen? An oven's was the same thing. It had a thermostat. You open the oven door, the cold air would go in, it would cause the temperature to drop, the fire would then go back on to do it. Ovens as well, if you open the oven door, even if the flame is on, the fire would stay on for longer because now it needs to stay on for longer, like being mosef shemen, which is a problem on Shabbos. Is that mosef shemen? And is your action of opening the oven door directly causing this? So Rabbi Shlomo Zalman has many tshuvas, and is probably the original of the heterim to open the fridge on Shabbos even when the compressor's not on. So some solved this by just waiting for the fridge to turn on. Only when the compressor was on and it was rattling, would you open the fridge door because then you're not causing it to go on, it's already on. And the same thing with ovens, would only open the oven door when the fire was on. This is what became... there were people who were being meikel and wouldn't worry about this shaila because of their rabbonim, and the ones who were machmir were very often just waiting for the compressor to go on or the fridge to go on. And that was the original Shabbos mode. You just spoke to your rabbi, you knew how to use it in a way that's appropriate for Shabbos. And then about 25, 30 years ago, the appliance manufacturers were tapping into this and working with, and the Star-K was a real pioneer in Shabbos modes to solve Shabbos problems. Originally at that point, they were focused more on more new problems, not related to the old ones. So some new ovens, after 12 hours they would turn off. Who leaves their oven on twenty-four, for 12 hours? After 12 hours it would go off, and that would be a problem for Shabbos or Yom Tov for sure if you needed to keep it on. Another very practical thing, but people would like their oven to go off Friday night, set the timer so it turns off Friday night after your food's done. So ovens come with a time-bake feature where you can set a timer, but almost all ovens they beep and they continuously beep after the timer ends, which would be very annoying on Shabbos to have the timer beeping the rest of Shabbos, and Shabbos mode would disable that. So there was a couple of those practical types of things that the Shabbos mode was solving. Then lights became common, and Shabbos mode very often were also able to solve the light. Fridges also the Shabbos mode came to solve a bunch of problems. One of the probably biggest problems, besides for the light, those don't turn off after 12 hours like ovens do, but there's a defrost in the back of the fridge. It builds up ice, or frost-free are fridges. In the old days you had to manually defrost your fridge. Ours are frost-free, gratefully we're not dealing with the ice build-up. But the way it does is it turns it off and it puts a heating, there's a heating element in there and it gets red hot. It actually, which we, which is esh. There's fire in there. So eventually there's a fire going to go on in the back of your fridge, a halachic fire for Shabbos purposes, that's going to melt the ice off. So the question was what triggered that to go on and off? So in more recent models, again, recently not in the last few years but in the past decades, they've put those on, they want to do it efficiently, so they started doing it by how often the compressor runs. After a certain amount of time the compressor's running and the fridge is cooling, it assumes there's a build-up and it will go into defrost mode. Another thing they would do is count how many times you open the door, because humidity affects how much humidity's in the fridge is going to affect it, and that's going to also depend how many times you open the door and let in ambient air into the fridge. So it counts those door switches. So eventually you'd open the door a few times, let's say it's every tenth door opening, you've that tenth one, you've opened it and it said let's turn on the defrost, and that's actually a de'oraysa shaila because it's an actual fire going on in there. So the Shabbos modes almost universally solve that by Putting it on a fixed timer. It goes on every so often automatically, unrelated to how often the compressor's running and how many times the door's been opened. It's been able to solve some of those as well. It'll disable Shabbos modes will disable the buttons so almost all the buttons won't work on your fridges and on your oven or at least when you push them nothing will happen, nothing will be visible from it. So they've come to solve a lot of minor issues and then some practical issues and then some halachic issues as well. The Shabbos modes have become very helpful for. Got it. Any other issues that you wanted to discuss as far as the Shabbos mode addressing? We discussed thermostats, you discussed the the defrost right. So the door switches is also something we discussed in the last episode. We discussed last time yeah. The door switch and what the door switch does. But just to go back to the pre-Shabbos mode days of the thermostat to discuss that for a minute. Rav Shlomo Zalman was talking about in his teshuvas. He's talking about a very old thermostat that they would use then which had a capsule of gas of liquid. If it got too warm it would expand into gas and would blow up a what was called a bellows which is essentially a balloon. And that balloon would physically push a button to contact and turn the oven on or turn the fridge on and then it would cool, it would go back into liquid, it would shrink and then the contacts would come off and that's how the compressor went off. So this was a very physical physical manual of sorts analog version of a thermostat. Thermostats have come have changed quite a bit. Our current thermostats in ovens and fridges have no moving parts. There's just a little bit of metal in there. The computer's sending an electrical signal through what is a thermistor and it's and measures the resistance of the electric through it and that resistance changes based on temperatures. It's very minute. It changes very slightly but these are super sensitive and they can pick up the slightest changes in temperature by sending electricity through a piece of metal and seeing how it comes out the other end. They can detect it so it's it's an entirely different thermostat than Rav Shlomo Zalman was ever talking about which does have halachic ramifications and the poskim and the certifiers of Shabbos modes work very closely with to figure out. So Rav Shlomo Zalman was was meikel in certain scenarios. There were machmirim but since then the Shabbos modes have said hey we can actually solve we might be able to solve the thermostat problem as well. So besides for making it as like an old thermostat or at least as good as the one that Shlomo Zalman was being mattir, they said we can solve it entirely and various attempts have been made at figuring out how to solve this. Some some super creative. Some people were just putting their fridges on timers. You put your fridge on a timer it the whole fridge goes off every 15 minutes for five minutes and while it's off you quickly open it and close it and you take whatever you want out. It's not very good for the new fridges. The new fridges have a computer in there and they have very strict cheshbonos on how they operate and when they do so it for the new fridges. Would it be good for it to be going on and off randomly? It's terrible for the fridge. The new the new fancy fridges it's completely terrible for but this is what people were doing. The old fridges could handle it because that's kind of how they were built anyways. They were just unplugging and plugging themselves in with the bellows. But the new fridges they can't they're not built for it so you're really going to reduce the life of your fridge if you do something like that. Even taping down your door switch the whole week is bad for the fridge because they they built the fridge to be to rely on that feedback for various functions and and the experts say it'll reduce the life of your fridge if you keep it taped down the whole week. It may not even cool properly because it's it relies that when it's the door's open it will know it. So over Shabbos it'll be okay but over to do it the whole week and just leave it like that permanently on the newer fridges they say will reduce the lifespan of your fridge. So the the ways to solve the thermostat we started with putting it on a timer some people were doing and then the agencies got involved and they were able to work with the work with them and and come up with creative solutions. So some of them have where they put it instead of constantly taking the temperature and knowing and then immediately acting upon whenever there's a change in temperature to turn the the appliance on or off it goes it's set to go on at fixed intervals. It'll take a reading right before it goes on to see if it's off a base if it's out of the window but instead of an immediate every every few minutes it'll take one it'll be set to go on and then it'll just take a baseline reading to see if it's off base and needs to skip that one. That's how some solved it. The new Shabbos mode they do something very fascinating. They take the ambient air temperature. Instead of taking the temperature in the oven they'll take the temperature outside the oven and they'll know based on the temperature outside the oven how often the fire inside needs to go on or off. Interesting. Another another solution some came up with was to let the oven remember from during the the fridge remember from during the week. We know that in your house this is how often the fridge the compressor needs to go on to keep your items cool because we've measured it the whole week. So it's gonna vary from house to house and appliance to appliance and use person to person depending on how you use it. So it depends on the person, your usage of it, depends on the environment around it, depends on the ambient temperature in the room, the humidity, all things, so if you just measure that during the week you can now know pretty well how often you're gonna need to go on and you just skip the thermostat entirely and on Shabbos only use go based on a fixed time cycle that you've determined by using the week beforehand. So there've been some creative ways that the Shabbos modes have been able to solve the thermostat shaylah and make the ovens and fridges even better than they were when the tshuvos were started to be written about a hundred years ago and those tshuvos when they were struggling with the thermostat Baruch Hashem they've some of them have been able to solve it in a way that's way better than we've had in the past but again this varies from model to model, it varies from certifier to certifier and type of Shabbos mode to type of Shabbos mode it's gonna vary. So to know what you actually if you've always been machmir on the thermostat shaylah you're gonna want to know how your current one works very specifically with your specific model to make sure that it's changed enough for you to change the way what you've been doing in your house until now. Got it. Okay, so you know the bottom line is if you have whatever appliances in your house you have to make sure that you're following the proper protocol and people who are buying appliances in addition to finding out the features, the model, the price you have to find out the halachic ramifications and components and get proper guidance so that it addresses some of the issues that you spoke about today that Shabbos mode were designed was designed to solve. Yeah. Right, and I want to add that it is very important if you have an appliance in your house to find out how it works but it's also crucial if you're going to buy an appliance understand how you want to use it and figure out if this is what you want to do with it and what the right model for you is. If you don't intend to ever kasher it for Pesach then don't worry about kashering it for Pesach when purchasing your model. But if you do you may want to know that in advance. Here's another example on ranges. Induction burners are very popular right now. A lot of houses they're neat, they're sleek, they might even be safer because they don't get hot. But if you have non-Jewish domestic help they're terrible because you can't turn the fire on and let them put a pot on the stove anymore as Ashkenazim because there's no fire there. So if you have non-Jewish you don't want to buy an induction burner if you have because then you have to actually put the pot on the stove for them. You can't just turn the fire on and let them go induction burner. So it's worth pre-purchase walk in don't buy the sleekest model and then afterwards call your rav and say how do I use this on Shabbos? Figure out how you want to use it and then go buy a model that fits your needs in the best halachic way possible that matches your needs as well. Excellent. Rabbi Katz thank you this has been a tremendous lesson in the workings of our home appliances and we greatly appreciate your expertise. Thank you. Thank you.

What does “Shabbos Mode” actually do—and what doesn’t it do? Rabbi Shmuel Katz, Rabbinic Coordinator at the cRc, joins R’ Yitzy Hisiger for an important discussion about the halachic realities, potential pitfalls, and different types of Shabbos modes found in today’s ovens. Hello and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the cRC, the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Shmuel Katz, rabbinical coordinator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Rabbi Katz, welcome to the Let's Talk Kashrus studio. Thank you for having me here. It's a pleasure to have you here all the way from Chicago to discuss a very pertinent topic, something that comes up a lot, and that's the topic of Shabbos mode on ovens. So just so that we proceed through this conversation responsibly, could you define for our viewers and our listeners, what does Shabbos mode do on an oven and then we'll get into the practical and halachic ramifications? So what is Shabbos mode? Okay, so that's a very loaded question, what is Shabbos mode? And that's where the misunderstanding start immediately. Appliances have been hitting consumer houses for about a hundred years. The shailos from the poskim are about a hundred years old already. These been building on each other, but appliances are not static. They've changed. They're not the same thermostat that Rav Shlomo Zalman wrote his teshuvos on. It's a very different product today. And even from Shabbos modes in their twenty-five plus year history have been solving different problems. So in the original days, they were more convenience-based. They've morphed at some point into severe halachic shailos and then the psakim involved have also kept up. And now there's multiple Shabbos modes available on the market for the consumers to be able to get to. So on a practical level, and correct me if anything I say is not accurate, but the way I understand it is that the chief Shabbos mode addresses certain electrical issues on an oven. If it's an electrical oven where, you know, you have lights that will go on or numbers that will change and things of that sort. Once it's in Shabbos mode, that gets solved and now the oven can be opened and closed without triggering any of anything electrical. It didn't sound so sophisticated, but does that make sense? So yes, but the answer's going to really depend on the model and the oven. It's going to be crucial to look at the instructions from the certifier on how to use it properly. For example, some models, they may have a freezer may have an ice maker that's not connected to the main computer. Some ovens have a light that's not connected to the main computer. So they'll have a Shabbos mode and it'll solve a lot of problems, but it can't solve the light in the oven or the ice maker in the freezer because it's not connected to the main computer. If it's not connected to the computer, they have to be disabled separately. And these instructions you'll be able to find from the certifier in their instructions on how to use that model properly. So obviously it's very important to know what the rules are from the certifier and how to use the Shabbos mode properly and what it does or doesn't solve is very important. When you say certifier, you mean that an actual kashrus organization is certifying the Shabbos mode on an oven? Is that usually the way it works? That should be the way it works. Okay. But it's a very important first step is to find out if there is a certifier. At this point, almost all models on the market are going to have some form of a Shabbos mode. Some of them don't have a certifier. So there's no one who's looked at this from a halachic standpoint and said this is kosher to use at all. So the company did that on their own volition? They decided to have a Shabbos mode to attract Orthodox consumers? So for one reason or another, sometimes it's there because it was designed at one point with a kashrus agency and then they no longer work with that or they stuck it on a model that they couldn't fully solve and an agency can't certify. So the first step is to make sure there is a certification agency. If there's no certification, no certifier on the Shabbos mode, there's no way to know that it's working properly unless you do extensive testing yourself, which is above the average consumer's skills. I would also add that generally, if you're buying your appliances from a frum purveyor of appliances, usually that frum proprietor will be able to tell you which appliances have, you know, I'll use Town Appliance as an example, one of the largest provider of appliances to the frum community. I know that they're very well versed in the Shabbos mode options in various appliances. So, you know, that's a place to start, but like you said, you have to verify with each individual whatever agency it is that's certifying it. Now, from what I understand, which is absolutely mind-boggling, is that tremendous michsholim have come out of the Shabbos mode, strangely, because Shabbos mode is there to solve Shabbos problems. But unfortunately, either due to ignorance or just, you know, assumptions or lack of awareness, people have made assumptions about Shabbos mode. For example, there's an issur of bishul on Shabbos. You're not allowed to cook on Shabbos. No matter how your oven is designed, you can't cook on Shabbos. But are people not realizing that Shabbos mode may solve an appliance issue, but you still can't take food and cook it in an oven even if it has a Shabbos mode? If you could elaborate on that. Yeah, so that's very important. When the first Shabbos modes came out, they called it Shabbos mode, and then it was discovered that people were using it to cook on Shabbos. Putting it into Shabbos mode meant that the oven is now solved. So it's crucial to remember the regular halachos of an oven apply, the regular issur of bishul is going to apply. The shehiya is still going to apply, which means you can't leave raw food in an oven from before Shabbos without a blech, and ovens don't have a blech. Chazara, you can't put stuff back into an oven on Shabbos even if it's fully cooked, again, because it needs a blech. So most ovens do not have a system to have a blech. Even in a lot of, even in Shabbos mode, they may not have a system that allows for that. And those halachos continue to apply as well. Shabbos mode has also introduced new angles to various challenges, which means depending on how the Shabbos mode was built, certain activities may or may not have been allowed in doing it. The Star-K in a lot of their models, they say very clearly that after you open the oven door, you can't close it with any food still inside on Shabbos. And this is related to the original psak of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the original machlokes with thermostats, but it's since then morphed into the way they've designed their Shabbos mode. So you're saying, you're saying to clarify, this Star-K caveat, even if the food is fully cooked, there are certain ovens that once you open it up, you can't close it on Shabbos. That's what you're saying. That is correct. And the Star-K makes this clear in their, in their manual, that that is not allowed to close it. So these, the consumer needs to be aware of what the Shabbos mode is, how the Shabbos mode's working, and what it does or doesn't allow even with things as simple as what you may have been used to doing for many years is to have your soup in there and your chicken for Friday night and have your cholent for Shabbos day in there, and you take your soup and chicken out and close it and leave your cholent in there for Shabbos day. That may not be allowed even in certain Shabbos modes. Depending on, depending on the model. This would depend on the model and how the Shabbos mode itself was built, so it's going to depend. Got it. So basically we can't give a blanket statement about any appliances here because you're saying it varies from appliance to appliance and from certifier to certifier. So unfortunately we like to give practical advice, but as much as we like to do that, we can't do that, you're saying, because it varies. It does vary model to model, it does vary also from certifier to certifier. The new GE models, just to give very practical advice, GE has two things. Number one is that some of their ovens actually have two Shabbos modes together. So you can get a GE, a GE oven, and it'll have two Shabbos modes available for it. And one is going to be completely uncertified and the other one is certified by the OU. Doing the same exact thing or doing... They are working differently. They're two separate settings, two separate modes on the oven. The way to access them would be different. But you can buy a GE model and assume that it has and end up in the wrong Shabbos mode that's completely uncertified. So with GE ovens, the ones that are completely uncertified, we don't, no one knows what they do. No one from our community has been checking on that. But on the certified version with the OU, it's certified by the OU and it has, they've solved a lot of problems and you can read their instructions for it. So they have, they do solve a lot more issues in certain ways, but it does have a different type of Shabbos mode than a lot of other brands that have a regular Shabbos mode. The Star-K also has an additional Shabbos mode called what they call the New Shabbos mode, which also solves some of the old problems and also another very different way. So if I had to break it down, there's let's say four Shabbos modes available on the market right now in, and this is for the American USA consumer. Obviously in Eretz Yisroel it's a whole different parsha, which is not, we're not going to discuss here. But there's four Shabbos modes. One is the company's own engineer stuck the name on and no one knows what it does. Number two is the Star-K, who's been the real pioneer in Shabbos modes in building that relationship with appliance manufacturers, their regular Shabbos mode. The Star-K more recently has come up with something they call the New Shabbos mode, which also solves problems that a lot of people wanted to be solved as the shailas got more severe. And then GE has a relationship with the OU where they have their own what they call Enhanced Shabbos mode. So yeah, it does sound a little similar, the names. A regular Shabbos mode versus a New Shabbos mode or an Enhanced Shabbos mode or or just a Shabbos mode that's not certified at all. Now we've been talking largely about ovens and when people hear Shabbos mode they think of ovens, but there are Shabbos modes for other appliances. There are Shabbos modes for other appliances as well. Like refrigerators? Refrigerators and ice makers, freezers, or right, refrigerators, freezers, some other small appliances. The biggest michshol happens in ovens, which is why the focus today is specifically on ovens because the biggest michshol is on ovens. Got it. Any other thoughts on this topic before we wrap up that you would share with our viewers? So there's three things that need to happen when you're getting an oven: is to verify that there is a certifier. There is the second thing is to verify what the certifier says is allowed. And there's a third thing we didn't have a chance to discuss yet which is: it's crucial to figure out if your rov will tell you to follow the psakim of the certifier. And that is a crucial step in this. The Shabbos modes are built based on the certifiers' psakim that they have, and they may not be universal. Sometimes I give the example of Cholov Stam. It's certified, but it still remains Cholov Stam. So if you don't eat Cholov Stam and it's not Cholov Yisroel, it won't be for you. It won't be for you. Right. So it's crucial to understand that there are psakim involved in this. The way they're solved is not always universally accepted, and therefore it's worth speaking with your own rov based on the Shabbos mode you have and how it works to figure out what may or may not be acceptable for you in your house. I want to point out something also which we didn't mention before is the Shabbos, but there's also Yom Tov. You know that people and again you'll tell me if this is correct, but on Yom Tov you may be allowed to cook, right, bishul's mutar on Yom Tov, but you'll still need your Shabbos mode on your oven to solve other issues like the electrical issues and lights and so on and so forth. So you mention bishul sheyei chazarah and things like that. Those may not be issues on Yom Tov, but a Shabbos mode is still going to be vitally important and you have to speak to your possek or whoever it is, the certifier, to find out what the parameters are for Yom Tov use. Correct. So to discuss a specific sheilah that's on ovens, which would be very nogeiah for Yom Tov and are really very nogeiah for Shabbos, is in more recently, it's not recent as in the last five years, this has already been going on for well over ten years or longer, they've put a door switch on. So we're used to door switches from our fridges and from our ovens. We open the oven door, the fridge door, the lights go on, and then we close it, the lights go off. So thirty years ago, forty years ago, we just unscrewed the light bulb, and that was the only thing the door switch did. Since then, these door switches have started controlling a lot of various parts of the fridge and oven. And to focus on ovens specifically, a lot of door switches today when you open the oven door, it turns off the heating in there. So until now, the sheilah has always been when you open the oven door, the cold air comes in and turns the fire on. What's happening now in a lot of ovens or almost maybe even most ovens, you open the oven door, the oven says, "Hey, the door's open, there's no purpose in heating this, let's turn it off until they close the door." So there is a bit of a safety element there, it's also much more efficient that way. So when you open the oven door, you're turning the oven off, and almost even more severely, when you close the oven door, you're not just closing the oven door, you're actually turning the oven back on. And this is not happening by magic, it's happening by a physical door switch. So with the oven door closing, you're pushing a button which tells the oven, "Please turn yourself back on." And obviously, pushing a button directly on Shabbos to turn your oven on is going to be assur according to everyone. But that is one of the most severe sheilahs on ovens, and that will be a problem on Yom Tov as well. Happens to be in the oven that I have in my house, which we purchased from Town Appliance, we got a magnet from them. They supplied it for us to put on the I guess it's the door switch that de-compresses the button so that it stays pushed down and it won't trigger anything. But that's just one example of addressing that problem. Right, and the various Shabbos modes solve that problem differently of a door switch. The various Shabbos modes solve it differently, and some rabbonim recommend even in Shabbos mode to make sure you have that magnet. Right, exactly. In my case, we still need to put the oven into Shabbos mode. So you really need to do multiple things. You do both. You're putting the oven into Shabbos mode because of a whole series of issues that it solves, and then you're putting the magnet on essentially because your own rov is saying this one particular issue we don't like the way the Shabbos mode solves it and therefore you should use a magnet to disable that manually and independently. So sometimes when you have an oven, so the Shabbos mode will tell you you need to put it into Shabbos mode plus do this, and sometimes your rov will give you an additional step of putting a magnet over the door switch, which is very common that a lot of rabbonim give that psak to do that. Additionally, some people will do it for practical reasons because if you want to leave food in your oven on Shabbos and the Star-K Shabbos mode solves it in a way that doesn't allow for that, the magnet may help for that. Leave food in the oven in the oven on Shabbos. Again, all with the guidance of your rav on what's appropriate for leaving food in the oven on Shabbos and opening and closing the oven door on Shabbos. Got it, Rabbi Katz. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for informing us about the Shabbos mode issues. Again, to our viewers and listeners, without a doubt, they should consult their rav and posek and speak to the respective certifiers of various appliances to get the full picture of what's necessary. But thank you for being here and giving us this information. We greatly appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Behatzlacha in shmiras Shabbos and behatzlacha for Klal Yisrael. Continued hatzlacha. Thank you.

Why do some Pepsi products have a K, some a Kof-K, and some no hechsher at all? Can you drink them? Rabbi Alexander Charlop, Rav Hamachshir for Pepsi, takes us behind the scenes to explain the surprising answers—including how Pepsi's secret formula stays secret while remaining kosher. Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the CRC of Chicago. Today I am honored to be joined by Rabbi Alexander Charlop, the Rov of Zichron Chaim in Cleveland and the Rav Hamachshir on Pepsi products. Thank you Rabbi Charlop for being here. Pleasure. Yasher koach. It's a zchus we've been trying to get you here for a while so we finally made it happen, Baruch Hashem. Now it's interesting, you are a rov in Cleveland, but you are involved in kashrus unrelated to your rabbinical duties. This is something that as I would want to hear you speak about, this is actually a position as the Rav Hamachshir on Pepsi that you yarshened, you inherited from your father who inherited it from his father. So this is something that's been in the Charlop family for years. Just take us down that road of history how that developed. Okay so my grandfather came to America in 1920 be'erech. He came from Yerushalayim. In around 1930 or so he started to realize that in America with food being made commercially, you really needed to have kashrus commercially. He was one of the founders of the OU kashrus department. That's your zeida. Yes. Rabbi Yechiel Michel Charlop. Then he went on his own, he went away from it. He actually, I believe, was the one that got them Heinz, which was like the first big commercial hashgacha that was gotten. And then he went away from the OU, he went on his own. He gave the hashgacha I believe since 1934 on Pepsi. Now there are a number of questions that come up and maybe we'll get into them. How do you give hashgacha on Pepsi if Pepsi tries to maintain a secret? We'll get to that. But and he developed, and he had a relationship with them until he was nifter in 1974. My father took over 1974 and gave the hashgacha till 2014. I worked with him for a number of years beforehand, but I took over the hashgacha since 2014. Now the Charlop family, are you related to the famous Rabbi Yaakov Moshe Charlop, is that same mishpacha? Yes, Rabbi Chiel Michel was a ben bechor of Rabbi Yaakov Moshe. Oh really? Wow. Okay. So mishpacha meyuchases. He was a rov in the Bronx and yeah. Very interesting. So it is a unique thing that this has carried over from generation to generation. It's besides for fulfilling your duties as a Rav Hamachshir, you're literally carrying on the legacy of your zeida and now your father which makes it extra special. How would you describe the yeoman's task of giving the hashgacha on Pepsi and what are some of the challenges that you encounter? Okay, so the fact that they're so large really makes the hashgacha much easier. 99 percent of our work is very boring. Because they have systems in place. Good hashgachas have good systems. The OU developed many systems that many of us mimic or take part, add, subtract, and they work very well with systems. So for example, just as a mashal, if you're giving hashgacha on a local restaurant that might only be doing $75,000 of sales a year, the owner of that restaurant could be short on oil and he could go out to a store and get oil which is a major sakana maybe he'll get oil that's not kosher. At a Pepsi plant where they're producing Pepsi, there's nobody in that building that has the ability to order anything for Pepsi. He can put in a request and most of it is not even by his request. He's just given the task to actually produce it. There's the team that does procurement, there's a team that's involved in regulatory, and the way Pepsi is set up now is that part of regulatory's jobs, part of what they're doing is making sure that it is compliant with kosher. In fact... You mean that's actually included in their responsibility? Correct. Just as they have allergen compliance and FDA compliance, all these different compliance, one of the compliance that they need to check before they run any product, because right now everything they run, we'll get into detail of certain ones that are a little trickier, but everyone that they run, anything that's in a Pepsi concentrate facility is kosher right now. You could have 700 ingredients, every one of them is kosher. How many such Pepsi producing facilities are there around the United States? Okay, so now... This is the part that makes it much easier again from a Kashrus vantage point. I don't know if I'm allowed to say the exact number, but I can tell you that a Pepsi concentrate has something called global procurement. They are concerned about always being able to deal with any issue that could come up. So if the Strait of Hormuz is closed, they have another option. If COVID hit, they have another option. And therefore they're really biktzei haaretz, they're at totally different ends of the world. But they have a handful, literally five different plants that are supplying different parts. Most of it is supplied from one or two concentrate facilities, but there are five concentrate facilities that are part of... around the world? Around the world. That provide to the smaller Pepsi facilities, would you say, or...? They are providing all the concentrate of anything in America for sure. Anything in America is provided by these concentrate facilities. Are all Pepsi beverages under your supervision? So all the what is called the cold fill, all the regular carbonated drinks, the concentrate for all of them is kosher. Now some of them are a little trickier than others, meaning about ten fifteen years ago they started introducing certain energy drinks such as Kickstart. Now Kickstart, all the concentrate... which is a Mountain Dew brand? Mountain Dew Kickstart, yes, thank you. Mountain Dew Kickstart is getting the concentrate from a concentrate facility. The concentrate facility is totally kosher. Anything coming out of the concentrate facility is kosher. But they have also direct drop. Meaning what does that mean in layman's terms? They have certain ingredients that are directly sent to the bottler or through a DC, a distribution center, which the distribution center sends it to many bottlers. When it comes to Kickstart, so Kickstart has a grape juice component. It advertises ten percent juice. Almost always when they're advertising ten percent fruit juice, what they're referring to is white grape juice. White grape juice is the cheapest, sweetest juice that they use. That is being sent directly to the bottler. Now they do order kosher grape juice, but grape juice is a very sensitive product. You can't just rely on the bottler getting it and assume that it's okay. And therefore we strongly recommend we would not take any responsibility and would say that you should only drink Mountain Dew Kickstart if the bottler has hashgacha. Okay, and how would you know that? Okay, so now the bottlers are at their own discretion can decide if or if not they will have hashgacha and they can decide which hashgacha. Many of them are independently owned and they can decide which hashgacha. For example, the New York area bottler is under Kaf-K. There are another couple bottlers as well that are under Kaf-K. They, because of marketing, they put a Kaf-K on the cans, on the bottle. There are many other bottlers that also have hashgacha will only put a K because it gets too complicated, they don't want to order a million cans with their emblem. So collectively all of them will just order with a K. You might have one or two might be under the Star-K, you might have one or two under the CRC, you might have one or two Northeast Vaad of Philadelphia... but the K is representing all of them? And K is for any kosher. As of now, I can't always guarantee it, as of now they always run by us who they want to use for a specific bottler and they will only use somebody that we say is reliable. Okay, got it. As of today, as of this recording, right? This conversation, yes. And based on that, if I would see a Kickstart with a K... you're comfortable because there's hashgacha on the bottling facility. Correct. So it's interesting, you jumped right into that topic which is one of the big Pepsi questions is why certain bottles of Pepsi products have a Kaf-K, some have a K, some don't have hashgacha on it at all. So you addressed why it may have a Kaf-K or a K because those supervising agencies are giving the hashgacha on the local bottling facility in that region. But why is there sometimes no hashgacha on a Pepsi product even though really it sounds like it would be kosher? So many of the bottlers... you are not allowed to put a hashgacha on your final product unless that final product was bottled with somebody taking responsibility that it is kosher. We will not take responsibility on a bottler if we never walked into that bottler and if we don't have ongoing visits into a bottler, we're not going to take the responsibility for the bottler. In truth, I wouldn't be concerned about the bottler without taking responsibility because they only... But that mere system, that mere system, that fear is enough to make you comfortable to drink from any Pepsi bottling facility in the United States? Yes, because for them to deviate, they would be paying so much money not to use Pepsi. Right, right. And it will be caught. And what about besides for the concentrate, aren't there other ingredients that they're using that may be of concern? So right now, at a bottler, on a regular drink, let's say Pepsi, Diet Pepsi, it's not Sierra Mist anymore, I forgot what all the different flavors that they have, the Mug flavors, the regular Mountain Dew flavors, including all their orange blast and berry blast and all the different names that they make are just different flavors in the concentrate. All that is kosher. What goes in at the bottler level is very simple. There's sweetener that goes in, which Pesach presents a major issue, but during the year sweetener whether it's corn syrup or sugar is what would be called a group one. It's very simple. Carbonation, water, very simple. They will have sent through the DCs, they'll send citric acid, sometimes another salt like a potassium benzoate, which are also all group ones. Furthermore, we are on top of all the distribution centers. There are a few distribution centers in America. We regularly visit them to make sure everything that Pepsi says that they are sending to the final product is kosher. Right. And how about the fact that it's an independent facility, you're not worried about shared equipment or using it for other runs and things like that? Very good question. So the assumption of most kashrus organizations in America is that that is not an issue because it's what is called a cold fill plant. Okay. So everything there is filled cold. You will have something that they'll just have to dissolve a concentrate but even that is not getting hot. There's no kli rishon. Got it. So even in a scenario where they would use it, it would still be cold. Correct. Even if they used it for something else that wasn't kosher? And you're saying it's probably not even likely that they're doing that. Right. The only thing that they use it for other than Pepsi is a number of the bottlers might bottle another national brand such as Dr. Pepper. Okay. But it doesn't challenge the integrity of the kashrus. Got it. And especially because nothing is hot and nothing is kavush, nothing is left in a tank for 24 hours overnight or anything like that. Got it. And Baruch Hashem, you build up a rapport. I remember the first time we went, they're very concerned about other people coming in just from proprietary purposes, but the first time the Badatz gives in Eretz Yisrael, and so we're dealing with the ingredients all the time together. And I remember we went to a specific supplier, and Rabbi Binder from the Badatz and I went down to the supplier. Rabbi Binder is brilliant and really understands the chemistry of ingredients very well. But we had to sign confidentiality agreement beforehand. By the time we left, they were nervous that he could repeat... that he's that brilliant. Aha, very interesting. They weren't worried about me. That's interesting. But I'm happy you brought up Rabbi Binder, you talk about Eretz Yisrael because that was going to be my next question. Basically we're comfortable with Pepsi in the United States, you're pretty much good to go with basically everything. Except for the Kickstart which needs either a K or Kof-K. Right, which needs a specific hashgacha. What's the story with Pepsi products outside the United States? Eretz Yisrael is great. And that's under the Badatz? That's under the Badatz, yes. Okay. Is it by the way, is Pepsi in Eretz Yisrael owned by the same Pepsi corporation? It's owned by the same corporation with a lot of overlap. Okay. We're on many emails together. Aha, interesting. So Eretz Yisrael you're okay. How about if someone goes to Europe or South America or wherever it might be? Okay, so at the beginning of the conversation we spoke about what is called global procurement, which is Pepsi's ability to supply globally. Okay. And if this continent gets knocked off, you have this continent and so on and so forth. Global procurement provides for many many countries, including all of Europe, including Russia, including the US, Canada, Mexico, all of Central and South America and Southeast Asia. Not included is one country in South America, Venezuela. Venezuela has its own concentrate facility. I don't know anything about what goes on in Venezuela. Okay. Not included is China, North Korea. India and I would be concerned probably around the number of the countries near India, whether it be Pakistan, Sri Lanka. I'm not sure whether those countries are covered by the India supplier or by global procurement. Got it. So what does that mean now that you've told us that, what does that mean regarding someone who's traveling, sees a Pepsi product, can he buy it, can he use it? If you're desperate, if it's not a third world type of place, in all likelihood you're okay because the Pepsi itself should certainly be made cold fill. There's no hot fill in that so you wouldn't really run into a major problem anyway. I just am hesitant to make a blanket statement. Right, right. Any final thoughts on this fascinating topic? If you're health conscious and you don't want to drink Pepsi, drink Bubly. Is that also Pepsi? Owned by Pepsi, okay. And that's under your supervision as well? Most of the Bubly. All Bubly concentrate is. Again, Bubly plants, the Bubly bottlers go on the same rule as Pepsi. Right, same rule as we discussed prior. Rabbi Harlap, thank you for being here. It's a tremendous zchus again, we wanted to speak to you for a while. Thank you for bringing us into the world of Pepsi and we wish you continued hatzlacha in your avodas hakodesh in carrying on the avoda that your father fulfilled so admirably, that your grandfather pioneered so many years ago in the last century and continued hatzlacha in all your avoda.

Why is there so much more Beis Yosef meat available today? What does "glatt" really mean? And are all glatt and Beis Yosef standards the same? Rabbi Zvi Fishbane - Rosh HaShochtim of the cRc - takes us inside the world of shechita, tracing the evolution of kosher meat standards and explaining what consumers should know. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let’s Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the CRC of Chicago. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Zvi Fishbane, long-time Rosh Hashochtim at the CRC of Chicago. Rabbi Fishbane, welcome. R’ Zvi Fishbane: Thank you, Shalom. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I’ve been privileged in the past to talk to your son, Reb Sholem. R’ Zvi Fishbane: Yes, Baruch Hashem, we’re very proud. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And today we are zocheh to have you after all this time. So you’ve been the Rosh Hashochtim at the CRC of Chicago. You’ve basically seen everything in the field of shchita. R’ Zvi Fishbane: I joined the world of shchita more than fifty years ago. And Baruch Hashem, I’ve seen a transition of the shchita standards from fifty years ago from the old time until today, and I’ve seen the transition to be on a higher and going on a higher, higher madreiga, then always looking for more hiddurim and more availability on a higher standard of kashrus, Baruch Hashem. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Very often when we hear people reminisce about the old times, they like to say how great things were back then. In the field of kashrus and specifically shchita, what do you see as the primary difference, or at least maybe even take us down memory lane, walk through what it was like five decades ago and then gradually to where we are today? R’ Zvi Fishbane: Well, it’s just very simple is that today, Baruch Hashem, the Olam HaTorah and even the Olam HaChassidus is much more learned and much more broader than it was for the people who were living in America before the war. And because they are such on a higher and they’re more learned with such a higher learning background, they understand more and they are demanding more. Once you’re demanding more, so therefore the industry has to keep up with the demands. I’ll give you a very simple example is that when there was a controversy of nikur or a controversy of chalav Yisrael, what happened? People would rather abstain from eating than get into shailos and look for heterim. So mimaila that itself was a reason that they upgraded the standards to supply the demands of the tzibur, Baruch Hashem. And that’s when I started the shchita world over fifty years ago, the idea of Glatt Kosher was just very didn’t wasn’t the norm. But like I say, the demand became bigger, so they had to find a higher standard of Glatt Kosher. But this is where the problem comes in. Was there enough to supply the tzibur for everything that they were asking for? So then already you have to look on the other side to find more Glatt Kosher. And that’s where the standard already became a little lenient to find more Glatt Kosher. For example, there is there was a when we started out, real Glatt Kosher was 100% Glatt Kosher, there was nothing more or less, you had to have Glatt Kosher if there was a request for it. Today, everything has to be Glatt Kosher and so they use the term today as being commercial glatt. It’s not the real glatt, it’s just called commercial glatt. Now you can stretch that to whatever it means. There is a sefer called Mateh Asher that people use to say up to three—I’ll explain what that is—three ririn, which is basically three sirchos, whatever it may be. We can still call that Glatt Kosher. So it became lenient. All of a sudden, the olam woke up to that and said, hey, this is not what we want. We want the real thing or else we’re just not interested in eating your product. We don’t need it. We’d rather have what we want. So we start asking for Bais Yosef. Bais Yosef is supposed to mean that the Bais Yosef said that we don’t take anything, so therefore the Bais Yosef is supposed to be without anything, nothing on it, no rir, no sircha, nothing, you didn’t play around with the lungs, you didn’t look at it. Okay, all of a sudden the demand for this Bais Yosef standard became higher. So we got to supply the Klal Yisrael with Bais Yosef. Right. Once again, we had to find heterim. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So let’s start at first base for listeners who are watching—listeners are listening, watchers who are watching—who are not shochtim, they don’t know anything about shchita, they’re relying on wonderful hashgacha. like the CRC and others for their, for their meat. What, what does glatt kosher mean in layman's terms? R’ Zvi Fishbane: Let's, let's go back and discuss the origin of what glatt kosher means. There's basically, without going into all the background of all the lomdus in the Gemara, basically we're talking about a machlokes of Rashi and Tosafos. It goes like this. If you find a something in the on the lung, it's called a sircha. Sircha is somewhat of a thin membrane that develops and it'll develop on the lung. So the question is, why as Chazal say, we don't take this. If it's in a certain position on the lung, we cannot accept this as kosher. So it's a machlokes Rashi and Tosafos as to why we don't accept it. Rashi says because anything you find on the lung, it's indicative, it shows that there must be a hole inside the lung, and we know that a nekev mashehu is going to passul the, is one of the treifos, it's in the nekev mashehu in the reiya, in the lung, it's going to passul. Tosafos is cholek on Rashi and says if you find something on the lung, it's not necessarily there's a hole in the lung, it means that there is a, it's going to eventually, since the lung is breathing and it's expanding and it's detracting, so because of the movement of the lung, it's going to eventually make a hole, sof lei l'nakev. That's why certain sirchos you would find on the lung, which would be 100 percent muttar because it's not part of the expansion of the lung. So that's already extended halacha in Yoreh Deah. But this machlokes of Rashi and Tosafos, how does, how does it affect, is that affect everything you find on the lung or not? So there was a time there was called the Beis Yosef and the Rema were talking about a certain procedure that they saw a adhesion, a sircha, an adhesion on the lung, and they would determine if this is what Chazal meant. Meaning like this: they would take this sircha in their hands and they would rub it and expand it, and if it dissolved, oh, it dissolved, so it's going to eventually dissolve anyway, and we're going to call it a sircha bas yoma and it's anyways going to dissolve anyway, so mi-mah nafshach according to Rashi means it never made a, it was never a nekev there in the first place because something that's going to dissolve on its own, it's not, it's indicative there's nothing really there, and according to Tosafos it's going to dissolve anyway, it's, once you make this miyuch u-mishmush on this reiya, so then we're going to, it's not going to be sof lei l'iparek. So this idea of miyuch u-mishmush, it became a machlokes between the Beis Yosef and the Rema. The Beis Yosef says, no, we can't accept such a bedika. And the, and that's where the idea of Beis Yosef means it has to be completely clean without follow up with any type of bedika. The Rema says, no, our minhag in Klal Yisrael to do miyuch u-mishmush. That was fine and dandy, that was beautiful until about approximately 150 years ago, whatever it may be, that they discovered a different way of being bodek the lung. It's called klipa. Klipa means that they took the sircha and with an expert way they can peel the sircha, the adhesion off the lung and check it: is there a hole underneath it or is there not? So that became the norm of how to check. The idea is, if you want to put it in layman's term, the miyuch u-mishmush process was a bedika on the sircha, is this what Chazal wanted, were referring to. And the bedika of klipa is not a bedika on the sircha but it's a bedika on in the lung, what the lung is once you peel it off. Once you peel it off, we're checking the lung. So that's the major difference of klipa and miyuch u-mishmush and it makes a whole difference in what kind of sircha, what's a sircha, how it, but that's, that would be the difference. The problem really is that hayos that it's a machlokes Rashi and Tosafos what the origin of the sircha is, so this idea of klipa is only according to Rashi because what are you doing you're checking for the hole in the lung but according to Tosafos that says it's soifa liporek you're not accomplishing anything with this kleipa. You don't know what's going eventually what's going to happen. And the Simla Chadasha who is the of course the posek acharon in Hilchos Shechita and Bedika says since it's a machlokes Rishonim we have to be machmir like both. So here we got a problem over here that everybody's doing kleipa and that became the minhag in Klal Yisrael but it's not according to all the shitos so it doesn't fit in according to Tosafos mostly according to Tosafos because of this reason because of soifa liporek. So everyone's that's where glatt kosher comes in. Glatt kosher comes in and says listen we're going to we're going to not have anything on the lung so you don't have a problem with Rashi and Tosafos and everybody will be happy. That's good if the glatt kosher is nothing on the lung. But if there's something a little bit on the lung and you're finding a heter is this a sircha this is what the Beis Yosef meant and go through that whole procedure of thought how does it fit in according to Rabbeinu Tam? That's how it that's where the major problem comes in. So what became a glatt kosher standard lowered itself to commercial glatt which you find something there and maybe we can take it maybe we can't. People woke up to that. That's not what we're looking for. We want nothing on the lung. Okay we'll give you Beis Yosef. The demand for Beis Yosef was overwhelming. All of a sudden the market is flooded with Beis Yosef. What's going on here? I had the opportunity to speak to one of the rabbonim machshirim and he explained to me not every Beis Yosef is the way I explained it. Vos heist? What's the makor Beis Yosef? It's from the acheinu haSephardim they have their masorah. And according to their masorah you can do certain things and you can accept certain things and certain sirchos you could accept it according to their masorah. I'm not familiar with it but this is the way it was explained to me. So according to their masorah this is called Beis Yosef. Oh we could go with their masorah and call things Beis Yosef. I looked at him I said that's what you're doing? We're talking about yungeleit we're talking about people who are choreid lidvar Hashem they don't want anything and you're giving you're saying I'm only giving it to a masorah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's like a chumra habah lidei kula because not only that if you would try and sell kitniyos on Pesach and not put on it Sephardim only try that it doesn't work. R’ Zvi Fishbane: So mimmiela that's what's happening basically right now. I'm not saying all the machshirim have this lenient standard but if you find a influx of Beis Yosef meat in the market and on the shelf you have to be choshesh for it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Choshesh for what? What practically? R’ Zvi Fishbane: That they're not using the standard that you want but rather a standard let's say that this acheinu haSephardim have a masorah for and they would take certain things off the lung. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So are you better off not buying Beis Yosef or is that what you're insinuating? R’ Zvi Fishbane: I'm not saying what better off what to do. I'm telling you everyone has to go and determine what where the meat is coming from what they want have be educated and follow accordingly. I'm not here to. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But if people who are not shochtim they're not experts at shechita they don't know the minutiae of or they don't know the details so what should someone do? If they want to be machmir betachlis hahiddur they want to get the? R’ Zvi Fishbane: There is a standard in the slaughterhouse today it's called Shaish Beis Yosef Shaish. So the sellers are developing what Beis Yosef is this is for the hamon am but the Shaish means Shaish is the highest standard Beis Yosef highest standard and there is a they do mark that but the question how much can you get? Shaish you can't play around with. Once you're calling something Shaish it means it's complete. It's perfect. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's perfect. So the question is if you're able to get that upon your request or not depending on the. And obviously you might have to pay the price for it because if well I'm not going yeah it's gonna cost perhaps more depending on what the market could supply. Or else this community they keep it for themselves. Let's say you have a certain community that has their own shechita they're rest assured they're going to take care of their own community before although like you say they can get a better price. So you mentioned acheinu hasfaradim. When you're referring to our Sephardic brethren with regard to Beis Yosef and standards of shechita, are you talking about all Sephardim, are you talking about certain segments of Sephardim, if you could clarify that? R’ Zvi Fishbane: I'm, well let's put it this way, I know that Hacham Rabi Ovadia was very makpid in what you call Beis Yosef. This is what we were saying was shaish Beis Yosef. He wouldn't settle for anything less and that's the way he instructed his talmidim and his tzibur. But there are other mesoras. I'm not familiar, I didn't go personally, I didn't interview other people, but this is what we're told in the industry, that there are machshirim from acheinu hasfaradim that said in that's the they have a different mesora and this is what they're transmitting and telling our machshirim who are copying that standard and giving using that as a standard for Beis Yosef. So it's not necessarily by everyone. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's only by certain ones. Now, to clarify also, tell me if I'm right about categorizing like this. Our whole conversation here is about a mehadrin level. We're talking about those who desire the highest level of purity in shechita. So we shouldn't mislead people. We're talking about people who want Beis Yosef because it's a higher level. And within Beis Yosef what you're saying is because there became such a high demand for Beis Yosef, so whatever the providers of meat have found ways for the meat to be considered Beis Yosef. So we're talking about within that realm of mehadrin, what is mehadrin, what may be mehadrin min hamehadrin and things of that sort, if you could elaborate on that? Exactly. R’ Zvi Fishbane: I just want to explain before the shechita standards have definitely been improved. The quality, the standard of the shochet himself that should be on a ben Torah-dik level at least. I know by the Chassidish communities they have to meet their standards as being a representative of their community and a representative of Torah and what they stand for. 100%. It's on a but to say that it's not acceptable, chas veshalom, everything is beautiful according to but I'm just bringing out this nekuda because the demand is so great as compared to years before, so this demand has brought them to want to supply the tzibur and in that nekuda the hiddur demand has lessened the standard that people may want to accept. But it's 100% there's no problem, it's 100% beautiful kosher shechita on all the basically in all the machshirim today and it's a kavod for the tzibur that the machshirim are well aware of the to keep everything on a higher standard with higher chumras and aderaba yochlu anavim veyisbau. Right. So, you know, we like to provide a takeaway for those who listen and watch Kashrus Awareness, let's talk Kashrus. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And so I'd like to distill everything that you said into perhaps a practical takeaway. If someone wants the highest level of shechita today, so a two-part question: should they look specifically for Beis Yosef and if they should, how do they determine that it's the highest level of Beis Yosef? What would you say? R’ Zvi Fishbane: I would say basically learn through the sugya. No, basically I would... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No, on a serious note, people are not necessarily able to learn through the sugya. Those who learn Chullin in Daf Yomi may have a little more knowledge of what we're talking about, but on a serious note, if someone really wants the highest level, what should they look for? R’ Zvi Fishbane: So basically what I'm saying is since the standards differ from one community from one shlachtois from one hechsher to the other, it would be a responsibility of the rav of a community to be able to advise his tzibur accordingly. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Aha. So you go to your rav and you say to your rav I want the highest level of shechita, he'll tell you which specific shechita, which store, which shlachtois and so on. Yes, I would think that should be the derech, yes. Rabbi Fishbane, thank you for being here. R’ Zvi Fishbane: It's been my honor. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's a zechus to be able to sit with you and on behalf of all those who have benefited from your dedication and devotion to the world of shechita for half a century, we say thank you, thank you for enhancing the world of kashrus as you have and for all your wonderful avodas hakodesh, thank you so much.

The ABC's of Food Delivery With recent reports of kosher consumers accidentally receiving food from non-kosher establishments, awareness of proper food-delivery procedures has never been more important. Rabbi Yitzchok Hisiger speaks with Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator at the cRc and Executive Director of AKO, about the halachos of chasimos, delivery services, and protecting the integrity of kosher food from restaurant to doorstep. Whether you order through an app or pick up takeout yourself, this episode contains practical guidance every consumer should know. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the cRc of Chicago. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Yehuda Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator at the cRc of Chicago. Rabbi Fishbane, how are you? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Baruch Hashem, thanks for having me. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's always a pleasure to have you here. Today we're here to discuss a very, very important topic, something we'll call a davar ha'omed al haperek, something of practical relevance now because of various stories that have made it to the news, specifically people who have ordered food from what they thought were kosher establishments and it ended up being non-kosher establishments, whether they confused the name, location, whatever it might have been, unfortunately people ordered treif and it came to their house, they didn't realize, they ate it, they consumed it, terrible stories. These are stories that rightfully make headlines and draw people's attention and that's what we're here for. We're here for Kashrus awareness so we'd like to address this topic today and get your input and insight into what people could do to be better informed and know what to do in certain circumstances. So let's start with what people should know, the aleph beis of receiving food deliveries. If you're ordering food from an establishment and are there protective measures that should be taken? Give us some guidance. R’ Sholem Fishbane: So that's a great point about protective because Chazal made siyagim, they made protective and Chazal were concerned with hachlafa, with switching around and they gave us halachos to protect the integrity of the Kashrus of the food and I think you're 100 percent right, these are terrible stories and for every one we hear there's a few that we don't hear about. And really it starts and stops with the halachos of chosamos, of seals, of protecting the food that you when you get it and this goes for whether it's not just the delivery services that you're referring to, even if you order straight up from a kosher restaurant but the person they're sending with, the halacha is if he's not a shomer Shabbos, whether even if he's not a goy, but even if he's a Yid but he's not a shomer Shabbos, he loses ne'emanus, you need to have a seal before you're allowed to eat it. That's the halacha, it's very clear. If you go to a store and the entire store's not under hashgacha, maybe one part is, this part is, that part is, and you buy something off the shelf, the halacha is it needs a chasima before you're allowed to take it out. You go at work where there's a public refrigerator, you can't just leave your stuff there, there's a halacha. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It's a great example. You send out the office secretary who's not a shomer Shabbos to pick up something, right away there's a halacha about this. R’ Sholem Fishbane: There's situations all of these are scenarios over and over and as you said... R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And to clarify before you go further, this is a meforash halacha in Shulchan Aruch, right? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Meforash halacha in Shulchan Aruch. This is not a minhag, it's not a new found custom. It's not a new found and that's exactly the point of Kashrus awareness is we're so used to, baruch Hashem, Klal Yisrael's growing and we're eating and everything's kosher, but whoa, whoa, whoa, Chazal knew what they were talking about when they said these are the halachos. So exactly I think today we'll go through some of the very practical halachos and ways to make sure and that's the halacha you're allowed to eat beforehand. It's funny, I saw somewhere where in places where there's kosher restaurants, there are people that are not even Jewish that will davka order kosher food because if it comes in right, it comes in sealed. Why? Because they know that and there's been studies on this, 30 percent of the Uber drivers or the drivers are noshing on the fries as they come in. Right. So they like their food protected as well. So this is a real thing. So it's important to understand that these halachos and therefore let's start with how many chosamos, how many seals do you need? So it's actually a machlokes Rishonim of what are the reasons. Is it because you go with a more expensive item like Rashi says where you need two chosamos or you go it's more de'oraisa de'rabbanan which is the Rambam and that's how the Shulchan Aruch paskens de'oraisa versus... The d'oraisas therefore would be fish without skin, meat, if you're in the techeiles business, you know, that would be need two chasimos, d'rabbanan's like bread and cheese and pizza and cake. These things would need one chasima. In Shulchan Aruch it talks about what about non-mevushal wine, which be'etzem is a d'oraisa but the Taz says today it's it's switched over to d'rabbanan. These are various things, but let's go with how Shulchan Aruch calls it, you know, d'oraisa versus d'rabbanan, needing two versus one. Okay. So so what qualifies as a siman, right? So what qualifies as a siman is it it takes significant effort to duplicate it and it's difficult to open the package without breaking or tearing the closure, the tape, the packaging. It looks like it's like it's broken. So for example, I went to the store and I bought this potato salad, okay? The potato salad as you see, this is d'rabbanan, okay? And it had a nice CRC tape around it and I wanted to see what would happen if I tried to open it, and as you can see I ate it and it was very good, and I tried to see if I could open without breaking it, and look on the bottom. So you can see right away how it was, so the tape is still there but you see that somebody did something to it. It got squeezed, something's off, something's off. So the driver or whoever it is that might also want to will say, "Okay, you know, I'm not going to bother with this." This is what Chazal had in mind. It's very... so let's let's talk about some of these things. There could be zip ties, there could be staples, you can staple a thing where you can take... this is, this is a one valid chasima. Here's the, here's a receipt, okay, of of the guy's name and what I ordered and all of that, and what they'll do in a kosher restaurant is they'll they'll staple it on. So that's one chasima, right? And then what the what the mashgiach will tend to do is you'll see there'll be tape, they'll put tape, that would be a second chasima. Right. So that's a very good thing. Or they'll or they'll just do one with with the bill inside. That would be another way of doing it. Another way is you can do an atypical knot, obviously kosher tape, Hebrew writing. Sometimes we'll be run out of tape so we can write on a piece of paper, we can put a piece of regular masking tape, and we'll write our name in Hebrew, our names across it, so that if you if you try to open it, it will it will go through. Right. Holograms. You know, there is a concept called a siman muvhak. A siman muvhak is like to, even though it's one, but be'etzem like it's halachically like two seals. So for example, you know, if you go buy a cryovac pack of chicken from the shlachthouse. If you look at it, there's really just one one covering, even though it says kosher in two different places. That's called a siman muvhak, because most people that are delivering don't have cryovac machines on their belt to redo that. That's a siman muvhak. Pre-printed tape with kosher tape in it, that's voiding. In other words, if you peel it off, it will like rip. That would be also siman muvhak. So here, I brought two pizza boxes. Typical pizza box, right? It needs for sure one chasima. So if it just has the the company name on it without anything on it, that's not a chasima. Right. You can't accept that necessarily. If it has something like this, look at this. So easy, so easy to open. The way it's supposed to come is, you can see the tape is wrapped around once. For me to, for someone to try to open it, they would ruin the they would ruin the box, exactly. Now there are many times you'll find a product, all it will have is the company name on top of it. Lechiora, this doesn't mean anything because, you know, anyone could open it, you know, same over here, you know, Miriam's cookies, you know, this this doesn't do much. Now the proper way therefore to to do, let's say you're buying something like a meat sandwich, it needs like a crisscross. You need to have, this is considered two, that's considered a double chasima. A double chasima. So these are the many many examples of how how these things come out and and really it's it's critical for us to teach our children, for the schools to teach the students, what qualifies as a chasima, what doesn't qualify, and therefore there's no such thing as, "Oh, I only have to worry about it like when I order something on online," but it's anytime you go shopping, let's educate the consumers of what's considered a good chasima, what's not, and which products need two and which products need one. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. So we mentioned two chasimos, let's say meat, poultry, fish, things like that would need two chasimos. What are some of the items that would need one chasima? Would it be baked goods? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Baked goods, yeah, anything from a bakery. bread or anything like that, anything with cheese, which is, you know, d’rabbonon, milk, you know, I don't know if you order something from a Dunkin' Donuts, the kosher one versus the non-kosher, and it's a coffee, you know, that would be one chosimah or a Starbucks or, you know, that type of thing. Almost everything that doesn't have in it meat, fish, poultry, and those types of things, d'Oraisas, then that would need one chosimah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What happens in a scenario where someone does their due diligence, they order from a place that they know is certified, it comes, the order comes, they look at the bag, they look at the package and they see there's something off, either it's missing the seal or the seal seems tampered? What do they do? Is there any way to salvage the food at that point? R’ Sholem Fishbane: So that's a great question, and we get this all the time where someone will call our office and say, I'm downtown, I ordered from one of the establishments and it didn't come with a... you know, I want to tell you something interesting. I asked the kosher restaurants, why don't you make it a policy every single time that anyone comes for a takeout food, it has to be chosum automatically? Right. They said, 'cause they get upset with us. Most people that walk in want to make sure we have enough ketchup packets and forks and knives. Don't seal it over. I need to see what you put in there. Was it the right order? Oh, that's a very interesting point. Very interesting point. So therefore we don't do it, and you know, unless we know for sure that it's... you know, we try, but when there's pressure at a restaurant, lunch hour, forget it. Oh, forget it. Sure. So what do... so we get this call all the time. So there is a concept in halacha called tviyas ayin. So tviyas ayin means that if a ne'eman kashrus can tell you, I can give a shvua this is... that that food is kosher, that is acceptable. So we do this, you know, the guys downtown, he's starving, there's a convention, three-day convention, he finally got something kosher. We'll have him take a picture of the food and or maybe even a livestream to the mashgiach in the restaurant who will look around and say, I can identify that is exactly what we sent out. Aha. That's called tviyas ayin. And tviyas ayin works across the board. Even in your own home. You go out and there's someone working in your home, you know, in the kitchen or in the home that's not Jewish or not shomer Shabbos, that's the halachos basar she-nisalam min ha-ayin. So if you have a tviyas ayin on the food, that works as well. But that would be the primary way to get it to fix up something that came in that didn't have proper chosimos. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Would you say that a classic case of tviyas ayin for a homeowner who's not a kashrus expert, doesn't necessarily know how the food is prepared is perhaps, I'm just asking as a suggestion, if someone always orders from the same place and they know the way the food is usually presented and now they got the same order that they usually order but it didn't have the seal? Is that enough of a tviyas ayin because they know what it usually looks like? R’ Sholem Fishbane: Yeah, the tviyas ayin can be on both sides of the aisle. It could be if you are, you know, fries are fries, and that's easier. Or even a... you can make the argument that a pie of pizza kind of will look... but if it's a certain knish, a meat knish that you like getting, and the way it's done, I recognize this from this the way they grill it, the way they... yeah, that would be tviyas ayin as well. Obviously, as we said, let's educate ourselves in chosimos that we don't have to come onto what-ifs, but of course there are ways to salvage if something doesn't work the way it's supposed to. But again, we... I think it would go without saying, we would advise someone in any scenario if they have a kashrus professional they could consult, a rov, they should always do so if they can to be sure. Right. And if I could make a suggestion or a plea, as I said earlier, the schools should have some sort of education. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Education, right. Of what's called a chosimah so that everyone, no matter where they are, they could be in the most metropolitan frum area versus vacationing in who knows where, it's the same halachos and therefore they should be educated. So we thank you for the education that you brought us and to the public, and continue to have hatzlacha in all you do. Thank you.

On this episode of Let’s Talk Kashrus, Rabbi Yitzchok Hisiger is joined by Rabbi Dovi Goldstein, Managing Director of Kosher SA, for a fascinating look into the world of kosher safaris in South Africa. From luxury five-star lodges with sealed kosher kitchens and mashgichim flown in on demand, to self-drive family safari adventures with coolers and portable braais, Rabbi Goldstein explains how travelers can experience the African wilderness without compromising on kashrus. The conversation explores the unique challenges and opportunities involved in certifying safari environments deep in the jungle, far from civilization. Along the way, listeners get an inside look at one of South Africa’s most remarkable and unexpected kosher industries. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Dovi Goldstein, MD at Kosher SA, that South Africa. Thank you, Rabbi Goldstein for being here. R’ Dovi Goldstein: Thank you so much, it's a great pleasure. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Now there is another, there is another famous Rabbi Goldstein from South Africa, that's the Chief Rabbi, which you're not yet. R’ Dovi Goldstein: I'm not the Chief Rabbi. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: You're the other Rabbi Goldstein from South Africa. R’ Dovi Goldstein: That's right and it's a privilege because I shared an office or the back of an office with him, but we're not actually related, but he is a dear mentor and friend. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But it's good to literally have you here from Johannesburg, South Africa here on the East Coast to be able to do this interview and conversation. So you head the organization in South Africa, the Kashrus organization called Kosher SA, Kosher South Africa. That's right. You're the MD which is the Managing Director. And today we'd like to talk to you about the topic of Kashrus and Safaris. First of all, for those of our listeners who don't know what a safari is, tell us what a safari is and then you'll discuss how to certify a safari. R’ Dovi Goldstein: Fantastic. So a safari's a broad term. Generally it means that you're going into a wild place, and it's a really wild place, so it's not a manufactured wild place, it's not a zoo. It's wild and things happen in the way that Hakadosh Baruch Hu created in the beginning of time. Nothing's changed in many of these places. And the idea is to go there and to just be part of nature and to view nature, obviously in the safety of your own vehicle or of a safari vehicle, because these animals will kill you. So there's the big five, lions and leopards, buffaloes, elephants, etc. And the point is that you're going into a very natural environment that is undeveloped, some places there's never been development, so it hasn't even been rehabilitated. And it's just a very magical place and some of these places are enormous, like the Kruger National Park which is right by our doorstep, four hours away from Johannesburg by car, and people go there because it's just a phenomenal experience and for many people it's a bucket list experience in their lives, people spend time there. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So people go on vacation to safaris and they spend several days at a time in a safari environment, they'll stay in a hotel or something of that sort. R’ Dovi Goldstein: Absolutely. So people would go there for a week at a time or for three days at a time, four days at a time, some are ten days at a time. There's some, we've met an American couple, Jewish American couple that comes here for three months. They're retired, they spend three months on safari every single year. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Really? R’ Dovi Goldstein: Which is just phenomenal, but it is something which is remarkable that a week on safari often feels like you've been away for a month or for two months because you're just in such a different framework and your mind's changed that you come out of there and you just feel rejuvenated. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Wow, that must be why people do that. You're right. But what Kashrus complications are there when people go to a safari? First of all, what are you certifying there? R’ Dovi Goldstein: So there's a couple different ways to do it. So let's call it right at the top, there's some very expensive safaris which are pretty much geared to the American market or to the European market and these are very exclusive safaris. I went to go and check one out a number of years ago and I always do my research beforehand, why do you want us and I went onto their website and it said their room was like, I don't know, five thousand dollars a night or something like that. But then it said take a suite, fine, not so unusual. Then it said take a corner for like five suites, and then it was like no, take the whole place for like whatever it was, a hundred thousand dollars a night and I said to the guys, I said who's taking that? They said no, when stars come, they always take the whole facility. So that's the highest end. So we've got about eight safari lodges is what they called that have a Kosher certified kitchen. So that kitchen's locked all year round. Wow. And only when it's booked for a Kosher consumer, you fly in a Mashgiach, we open the locks, we break the seals, all the food is flown in and it's very gourmet. So that's the highest level of safari. But let's talk there's a whole gamut, when we go on safari we obviously, living there we don't go on such a safari like that. We'll go what's called a self-drive safari. So you're staying in a vehicle, you're staying in a resort, you're bringing your own food. We do this as a family once or twice a year, which is a great Bracha and it's just incredible to be part of that kind of thing. There's no one driving you, we're driving ourselves in our own vehicles and it's just a very magical experience, very close to nature and just very close to something very real. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So if you're not on the high end and you're on what I would call the low end and you go yourself in your vehicle, do you need and could you get Kosher food? R’ Dovi Goldstein: So what's remarkable about South Africa is that besides for meat, and let's say Pas Yisroel, and wine, the penetration of Kosher products throughout South Africa is incredible. Incredibly accessible. So you can literally go with a cooler box of meat, and you know, like Kiddish wine or whatever you want, and everything else you can buy in the villages or the towns around these safari areas. So you don't actually need to prepare so extensively. There's plenty of things to buy. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Which we'll discuss in a separate conversation about South Africa in general and the kashrus there. But this is more about the safaris. Now the bulk of the safari supervision that you're talking about are these high-end type of arrangements where someone might be paying $5,000 a night for a room? R’ Dovi Goldstein: So the high-end ones where you are having a mashgiach there, those are high-end. There is also like a middle tier where it is not you know $2,000 or $3,000 or $4,000 a night. And they could have a kitchen that is kosher certified, obviously we'd have to send a mashgiach. But there's many ways to do it. And as I said, it's pretty incredible that you can go there fully immersed, you know, we're talking about many miles away from any civilization and have a gourmet experience. Experience. Yeah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Have you ever served as a mashgiach in that environment or have you only kind of overseen the operations? R’ Dovi Goldstein: I've overseen it but I have been a few times with training of the staff. So it's not an official trip, right? So I've been there for a night or two nights and we train the staff. Unfortunately, I don't do it enough. When I took on the role, I said this is going to be what I'm going to be doing, you know what I mean? Sounds very attractive. Very attractive. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time. I've got a great RC, Rabbi Alon Joseph. He travels to these places probably every month. He's training, he's meeting with guests, he's meeting with new lodges. We're trying to expand this. We believe it's one of the greatest products that South Africa has to export. Right. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: That no one else really could offer, right? You're saying eight lodgings that you have in the vicinity of the safaris in South Africa. And these are all about four hours from Johannesburg? R’ Dovi Goldstein: Let's say between four and six hours. But at these very high-end places, people are flying in private jets and they're going, they've often got a private landing strip. So people don't even come to Johannesburg sometimes, they fly directly in and it's just a remarkable experience. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: By the way, after this episode, get ready for an uptick in reservations. R’ Dovi Goldstein: That's what we're hoping, right? R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Before we close the conversation, what would you say because it's a very, very unique arrangement, very, very different than certifying a more conventional environment, what would you say is the biggest kashrus challenge in producing that type of service? R’ Dovi Goldstein: So a place that has a dedicated kitchen is generally pretty easy because it's a kitchen, it's all set up, it's totally kosher, it's locked up, milk, meat, separate milk, meat, everything. And these places because they're so high-end and five-star do things properly. So nothing, there's no shortcuts. So actually to certify a safari at the highest end is not difficult. But I think it is important to note, is that because money's not an issue? Money's not an issue. Exactly. So they'll have the best quality cutlery and stoves and they're not afraid to do that because their guests are paying so much. But I think what is important to highlight is that let's call it middle-end and even let's call it lower-end, there are so many other ways to do it. And obviously it can get challenging if you don't have a mashgiach there. We wouldn't certify such a place. But there's plenty of ways to also go on safari without it having to be high-end. As I say, many families, most South African families travel to safari and they, they bring their own food. And they bring their own food or they buy food in the vicinity. They bring their own braai—we call it a braai, you call it a barbecue. They bring their own barbecue, they bring their own pots and pans, and it's not very difficult to have a safari and what I would like to say is people shouldn't be afraid when they see the high-end prices to think you know that's the only way to do it. There's plenty of other ways to do it and with research and obviously with AI today, there's many ways to do it and it's something which I would believe almost anyone could achieve if they put their mind to it and they'll find a price point which works for them. Or I imagine they could reach out to you and your office, right, for information and guidance. Absolutely. And if they go onto our website which is koshersa.co.za or za, koshersa.co.za. Dot za. We call it a zebra, right, a zebra, you call it a zebra. And if they go onto our website they can find it and obviously they can contact us. We have many people especially during the vacation time that join our WhatsApp lines and join our communication channels and they can ask us for advice and we'd be so happy to help them find a way to do it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay Rabbi Goldstein, this is a fascinating topic. Thank you so much for being here and we look forward to speaking to you.

Part 2 of the sous-vide, can it be used on shabbos or yomtov? Rabbi Dovid Cohen - Administrative Rabbinical Coordinator at the cRc, fills us in on potential shabbos issues with using a sous-vide. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Welcome to Let's talk Kashrus, presented by the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am joined by Rabbi Dovid Cohen, administrative Rabbinic coordinator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Rabbi Cohen, how are you? R’ Dovid Cohen: I am good, thank you. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So we previously spoke about the Sous-vide device or machine, and you gave a fascinating overview of what this device is. Today I'd like to hear from you about the halachic ramifications of the Sous-vide in relation to Hilchos Shabbos about leaving food in a Sous-vide on Shabbos. Let's talk about that. R’ Dovid Cohen: Okay, so before we start, I have to say this. It's obvious that you can't put food in on Shabbos. Okay, you're not allowed to cook on Shabbos, so it's obviously you can't put like as you said, the question is, can I put in food before Shabbos? Okay, so there's two potential issues that we could think about. The first is called Shehiya. Shehiya means is the Chachomim said you're not allowed to put food in to cook before Shabbos into a into a fire or wherever it is because they were concerned that if you do that, you might end up wanting the food to cook a little faster and you'll adjust the flames to make the food cook a little faster. So they said you can't put food in, so which of course is what we're doing, we're putting food in to cook. Now there are several exceptions to when you are allowed to. We all do that. We put in food, we have food that's hot for Shabbos. So there's some exceptions to that rule, and let's think about those different exceptions and whether they apply. Okay, three main exceptions. One is if something called if you have put in raw food. If you put in food that will for sure not be ready to eat on Friday night, there's no question it won't be ready, and it for sure will be ready on Shabbos morning, then the Shehiya doesn't apply. And it's logical because why would I adjust the flame? It won't be ready tonight anyhow, it will for sure be ready tomorrow. I have nothing to gain by adjusting the flame. So in some cases of Sous-vide, that's that's appropriate because if I have a food that takes twenty-four hours to cook, there's no way I can make it higher, it's not going to cook any faster in time for tonight, but by tomorrow it'll for sure be ready. That would be okay. But most Sous-vide is not like that. Most of it takes just a couple of hours and if I were to adjust the flame I could get it ready faster and it could be ready for tonight, so that won't help us. Okay, the other one which people are very familiar with is that if you have a blech, okay it's called grufa u-ketuma. You can leave food on the fire if you have a blech because the blech is a reminder don't adjust the flame. That's it's a reminder they don't touch this flame, you're not supposed to do that on Shabbos, so don't adjust it. Okay, that would be great, except how you going to make a blech on here? What are you going to do? Where are you going to put the blech? Where are you how you going to cover the fire? It doesn't there's no setup that could allow you to how would I cover this fire? The fire is in this rod, in this circulator. How how am I going to it's not realistically there's no way to do that. Okay, but what I can do is but the third answer the third solution will potentially help people. And that is if the food is cooked enough, I'll tell you what enough means in a second, if it's cooked enough then you're allowed to do that because the Chachomim said you know what, it's so it's cooked so well you don't have any need really to adjust it to make it a little better cooked than that you won't forget to do that on Shabbos. Okay, so the Rama says what we follow he says the minhag is to follow the opinion that says is it's enough if it's ke-ma'achal ben drosai. If it's passably edible, that's good enough to allow you to leave it on from before Shabbos. Ke-ma'achal ben drosai the Mishna Berura says we should do means half cooked. Well what do what does it mean half cooked? Excuse me for that we go to the Chazon Ish. Chazon Ish says when you want to decide something is how cooked it is, is it half cooked, look at the cook time. How long does it take to cook this food? After half that amount of time it's half cooked. Well in a regular piece of chicken I'm not sure how you do that, but in Sous-vide it's really easy because you put in the program how long you want it to cook for. You say cook this for four hours, okay you tell the machine cook it at this temperature for this many hours. So you just have to make sure you did it half before Shabbos. If your program is three hours then it's got to be hot already an hour and a half before Shabbos and then it'll have been half cooked, in which case you avoid the problem of Shehiya. The food is passably edible and therefore you there's no concern of Shehiya as long as you get it passably edible in this case means is half the time of the cook time. Okay so as I as we spoke about last time the Sous-vide machine you tell it the temperature you want it and once it hits that temperature it starts counting down. So as long as you hit that temperature and start the countdown half of the way before Shabbos then you're good. So let's say three hours you have to hit the temperature hour and a half before Shabbos and then it will be good enough. Got it. So that's as far as Shehiya. That's for the Shehiya part. Shehiya means we're not allowed to leave food in that's one problem. Okay, that's the that's one issue to deal with. The second issue is called Hatmanah. Hatmanah is that we're not allowed to take food even before Shabbos and wrap it up in a way that it'll get hotter because it's wrapped up. So like the classic case for us is if I have a hot water kettle a hot water urn and I don't I want it to be even hotter than it usually is, so I wrap it up with towels or some kind of, something around it. So I'm wrapping it up, I'm insulating it, and it gets hotter because there's a heating coil in it. That's called Hatmanah, in a way that makes it hotter, you're not allowed to do that from before Shabbos. Okay, if you wrap it up all the way. So you say, okay, what does it have to do with this? Where's that, where's the Hatmanah, where's the towels? I'm not doing any towels or something around, I'm not wrapping it up in anything. So here we come to a Taz, and the Taz says that if you put something, submerge something in water, that is Hatmanah. The water is the insulator, the water is insulating the food that's in there. Okay, it doesn't, when you think about it at first it doesn't seem like that, right? You think, you're thinking Hatmanah is like I put a blanket around it, that's Hatmanah. But he says no, Hatmanah is also, the water could be the Hatmanah also. Okay, so is that what's going on here? Remember, our meat is sitting there soaked in a pouch on the bottom in the water, so it's being, it's in the water. So is that Hatmanah? Now if that's Hatmanah, we're finished. We won't be able to use this on Shabbos. Okay, because Hatmanah, it doesn't help what we said beforehand about being mainly cooked and this and that, none of that's going to help us. So this question I didn't see people talking about it specifically, like written Tshuvos about specifically about Hatmanah for Sous Vide, but they talk about a very similar case. Okay, and let's see how it compares. And that is people want to put Kishka into their Cholent, and the Kishka is wrapped in foil. Right. So the question is, is it Hatmanah? Because the Kishka is being heated by the Cholent that's all around it. So before Shabbos I want to put it in. So I put the piece of Kishka into the Cholent and is it considered Hatmanah to put that in? So most people, most Poskim held that that was Mutar. But if we think about why they held it's Mutar we'll see it's not so clear that it's going to apply to Sous Vide also. Okay. One, some Poskim say the reason why it's Mutar is because the taste travels back and forth between the Cholent and the Kishka. It's just in a foil that you put into the Cholent for a reason, because you want it to get the taste of it. So it passes back and forth. Okay. And that's why it's Mutar, it's really part of the Cholent. Well, that doesn't work for Sous Vide because the, it's in a sealed pouch. There's no taste transferring back and forth between the meat and the water. No, that's not going to work. Okay. Other people said is well, it's Mutar because the foil that's around the, this is a very popular, people have said this. The foil around the Kishka is just there to hold it together, give it shape. You don't want it to disintegrate into the Cholent. So it doesn't count. Just ignore it. Pretend that there's no foil. Let's say there would be no foil, what would you say? Not Hatmanah, it's just cooking, it's just part of the Cholent. You don't say the potatoes are having Hatmanah, it's silly, it's just part of the Cholent. So it's just another piece of the Cholent over here. They said so the foil doesn't count. So they say here also the bag, the pouch is not for any special reason, the pouch is just to keep the water out. So what's the difference, the pouch keeps the water out and the foil keeps the Cholent out, it's the same idea. Same idea. But it's not really, I don't think that that's an accurate description because what does it mean? So the foil we won't count the foil. What's the end of the sentence? The foil doesn't count and therefore it's part of the Cholent. Right? That's the end of the sentence. The foil doesn't count so it's just part of the Cholent. Over here what? The bag doesn't count so it's part of the water? No. What do you mean it's part of the, the water's not cooking, the water is just the way you heat it up. The water is not, no one would dream that this meat is part of the water. No, even if you ignore the pouch, you can't say the meat is part of the water. That doesn't make, that doesn't work like that. But what we do have is there's a Tshuvah in Minchas Yitzchak about this question about the Kishka in the Cholent and he brings there from Dayan Westheim wrote to him, I'll tell you why I think it's Mutar and at the end of the Tshuvah Dayan Westheim says I think that you're right about what you said. And he said is, we're looking at this wrong. Hatmanah means is don't do something that is insulating a food. But when we think about the Dinim of Hatmanah there are several examples where we look at what the person had in mind. What were you trying to do when you did this? And I'll give you an example. The Din is you're allowed to take food and wrap it in foil and put it on top of a pot of food on Shabbos. Why isn't that Hatmanah? It's wrapped in the foil, the foil is this insulator. The answer is no, because the person put it on top of there, why'd he wrap it in foil? He wrapped it in foil to keep bugs out. He wrapped it in foil so they shouldn't get dirty. That's why he did it. He's not trying to do Hatmanah. So we creep into your mind and we say why are you doing this? You did this because you were trying, you weren't trying to do Hatmanah, you weren't trying to insulate it and make it hotter, no, you had some other purpose in mind. So over here he says we see that we can creep into your mind and decide is this Hatmanah or not. So Dayan Westheim said was, he said is why is the person putting it in here? He's trying to cook. He's not trying to do Hatmanah. Hatmanah is I warm it up, I keep it warm. That's not what I'm doing, I'm trying to cook food. That's obviously what the person is trying to do. adding heat to it. No, he's cooking it. Cooking is not hatmanah. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Okay, so that's what Dayan Weiss said, and Dayan Weiss liked that chiluk, R’ Dovid Cohen: yes. In which case there would not be a concern of hatmanah. He's saying is you not have to be fancy and think we don't care about the foil, whether it's a taste traveler, he just says what the person's doing is obviously cooking. He's not he's not insulating, he's not warming, he's not getting heat into this thing. No, he's cooking it. It's obvious that's what he's doing. So he says that would be a reason to muttar, in which case, if you follow that opinion, then it's then it'll be perfect, there's no hatmanah issues. Just the just the shehiyah part of it which we said before. Okay. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Thank you so much. R’ Dovid Cohen: Sure. Great to be here.

Continuing the technology series, we are moving on to the sous-vide and the halachik challenges that arise with it. Rabbi Dovid Cohen - Administrative Rabbinical Coordinator at the cRc, fills us in on potential kashrus issues with a sous-vide.   https://askcrc.org/item/Keilim/968499 R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus  presented by the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Today I am joined by Rabbi David Cohen, administrative rabbinical coordinator at the Chicago Rabbinical Council. How are you Rabbi Cohen? R’ Dovid Cohen: I'm doing fine thank you. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Today we'd like to discuss a very very unique item, a unique machine that people use called the sous-vide and its halachic ramifications. First let's talk about what a sous-vide is. What is it? How would you describe it? R’ Dovid Cohen: Okay, it's a really unusual way to cook. Instead of taking your piece of chicken or piece of meat and sitting it in the oven at 350 degrees, you put it into this basically into a water bath. Okay, now that sounds really strange, what in the world? So before, you don't just put it right into the water bath, you put it into a bag. It's called sous-vide because that bag you suck all the air out of it. It really means under vacuum. So you suck all the air out of this bag and you put it into the water. So the bag keeps it from getting waterlogged, okay, and you put the meat into the bag and dunk it into the water. And then what you're going to do is you're going to heat up that water to just the right temperature to cook the meat. Which is to say is you've probably heard, the government will tell you when you're cooking a piece of meat it's ready when the meat thermometer tells you it reaches 145 degrees, 165 degrees, whatever it is. That's the internal temperature because the cooking does something to the meat, whatever it does to make it edible. And when it's ready, it's gotten up to a certain temperature. So basically you program your machine to heat the water to exactly that temperature. So that means is instead of at 350 in your oven, it's always cooking at 150 or 160 or whatever temperature you cooked. So it's really slow. Cooks at a really slow temperature, but you can't burn your food because it can never get hotter than what it's supposed to be. And it takes really hours and hours and hours to cook the food. Instead of an hour it could take three four hours. And again the idea is to be able to cook it more accurately. More accurately, more evenly, without burning it. And because it's in the bag you don't lose any of the moisture, everything stays inside of it. And it has a certain kind of cooking that people appreciate. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Have you ever tasted meat from a sous-vide? R’ Dovid Cohen: I have not. Sorry. Sorry, I'm just the rabbi side of it, not the chef side of it. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I'm curious to hear what the difference between the taste between a sous-vide and a conventional oven is. R’ Dovid Cohen: You have to ask somebody else. Sorry I'm not the guy to answer that question. Okay, but so that's what people do. And it's a kind of cooking. It's not the kind of thing like oh gosh we're going to eat in 15 minutes. You have to be well planned in advance and it takes many hours to cook it. Like there are things that will take a roast could take 24 hours to cook. A piece of meat might take three four hours to cook. So it's a slow process and somehow it makes food that tastes whatever it is and some people appreciate that. Okay, so first now that we understand what that machine is, I'm sorry, I forgot to describe the main part of the machine. There's something called an immersion circulator. And it looks, basically when I told you put the meat into a big bucket of water, into a pot, into a container, that's any container you want to use. But the real what makes it work is this immersion circulator. And that is it's a rod, you could see it here in the animation, it's a rod that sticks into the water and has in it a heating coil so it heats up the water and has a fan or an impeller on the bottom of it to circulate the water. So it, you program it on the top, you push in I want it to be at 145 degrees for six hours. Okay, and that's what it'll do. It'll heat up the water, once it gets the water to temperature, it'll clock down from you said six hours and then after six hours it'll turn itself off. So what it does is that circulator circulates the water and keeps all the water at exactly the right temperature. Exactly the temperature you picked and I forgot what I said 150, that's what it does, 150 degrees for the entire six hours. And the coil goes on and off just to you know keep it at the right temperature and this fan is spinning around keeping the water moving. And basically your meat sits there on the bottom in the bag or in the pouch and it does its cooking. Okay, so the first question people have about it is can I use it for milchigs  and fleishigs ? Okay, can I make in it something milchigs  and then something fleishigs ? Now there's not so much that people would make milchigs , but I guess people can. So the answer would be no they can't do that. And the reason is because although the food is inside a pouch, the food never touches the water. But the din  is that ta'am  passes through a kli also. So even though it's in a pouch, the ta'am  can pass through. So basically if I used it today for meat, then it became fleishig . And if I want to use it tomorrow for milchig , I wouldn't be allowed to. I could use it for fish which is a very is a popular thing. People use meat and fish. And that's because meat and fish you just can't cook together. But you could use the same pot as long as it's clean. So if today I put in meat, tomorrow I empty it out and I want to put in fish I could do that. But not milchigs  and fleishigs . Now that leads to another question which people have is okay I want to use it for milchigs  or more likely I want to use it for Pesach . Okay what can I do now? Can I kasher  this machine? You told me okay you told me don't use it for both, but what happens I want to kasher  it? What happens if I bought one or used one from someone who doesn't keep kosher ? So now I have a treif  one; okay, he used it for treif  meat. Can I kasher  it to be able to use it now for kosher  meat? So, I'm going to give you the short version of it. We have a shiur  on it, more complicated. We'll send people the link if they want to to hear the shiur that there is about this. But the thing is like this: at first you look at it and you say, of course I could kasher  it. It's meant to go into boiling hot water. It's meant for hot water. That's the whole thing is designed for that. Right. So easy enough. Boil up water. Boil up water and dunk it in. Okay, now you have to be a little, if I could use the word generous, which is to say is you're supposed to go the water up till this high, you have to kasher  a little more than that because water splashes around a little bit. Right. But and you can't get the very top of it because the electronics probably wouldn't be able to handle the water of it. But it's meant to be in water. So you say, easy enough, easy enough. I'll boil up a pot of water, I'll dunk it in and and so on, everything's perfect. I'll kasher  it. That sounds like the easy part. Right. But here's the complication. Everything's got it, you always there's always going to be a catch, right? And the catch is that the Rema  says things that have little cracks and crevices you can't kasher . Well, if you look at, if you pick up your sous vide, this immersion circulator, you'll see there's a zillion cracks and crevices. There's the holes where the water comes into, there's the fan, there's a heating coil, all that all stuck all together. It's all kinds of cracks and crevices where it's really hard to get it clean. Okay. So that's the question. Can I kasher  this if I can't get it clean? The Rema  says if you have things like that, you can't kasher them at all. So that's our that's the potential issue. Okay, well what's, so okay, what's the other side? The other side is that wait a second, no food ever touches this machine. Remember the food's... It's only ta'am , right? Yeah, the food's in a bag. The food's in a pouch. Okay, so I mean it happens that a pouch breaks but basically the food's in a pouch. So if the food's in a pouch, how's food ever going to get stuck in those little holes? Water is going to go in there but water's going to go in and out. Nothing's going to happen with the water. So on that's one side to say, come on guys, nothing's going to get stuck in the little holes because there's only water passing through the holes. That's all that's in there. Okay. But then there's another side. The other side is well, people who cook food don't cook it in a lab setup. What I mean is just because the food's in the pouch doesn't mean they don't get greasy hands touching the outside of the pouch and getting food on the outside. It doesn't mean that there aren't things, grease and all kinds of stuff going on in there. And there's another side which is imagine if food actually did get caught in there. You wouldn't even begin to be able to clean it out. It's hopeless. It's totally hopeless. It's not even like something with little holes that you could try. You can't even try over here. So people take different approaches. At the CRC we tell people that they could kasher  it from treif  to kosher  but not for Pesach . Pesach where chametz  is b'mashehu  they shouldn't, they shouldn't do that. But others would say is, come on, even for Pesach  you could do it because realistically no food gets into there. And the truth is also it's pretty hard to think of a case where someone would make chametz  in there. It's mainly for meat and fish. Right. We can come up with cases. You wouldn't believe there are people who actually bake cakes in there. Oh really? It sounds strange as it is, but yes there's such a thing, people make cakes in there. But also, but imagine if you cut a knife, cut with a chametz-dik  knife, you may cut food, cut an onion in there, so it could be chametz  in there. But so CRC tells people not to do it for Pesach  but for year round, we tell people they could kasher it. Okay. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Any final thought on the sous vide? R’ Dovid Cohen: On this part of it, no. No. For the, for the kashering and these kind of thing I think I think we covered it. Okay. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Thank you so much.